Why Isn't Mark Butcher in the ODI side?

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

With Wasim and Waqar not around, im tempted to say that Gayle is the best death bowler in international cricket (due to his lack of pace probably)... Ive been most impressed with him at the closing stages recently...

Interesting statement. He's one of the better ones, but I'm not sure he's the best. Top 5 for my money.

I remember when he opened the bowling once for WI early in his ODI career and did a decent job too.

 

[Rik]

I think Gayle is as good as many finger spinner in the world in Test cricket. He doesn't turn it a lot usually, but that's because he doesn't flight it or release it slow enough to allow it to turn. I'm not saying that he's potent, but then few fingerspinners are (except in turning conditions). What I'm saying is that he's underused in Tests IMO much in the same way that most people talk Vaughan to be.

To class Gayle as a spinner would be rather odd, the most turn I've seen him get is forwards and very slow.

Vaughan's a useful offie but nowhere near Test Standard, just a useful part-timer. But then, Giles isn't Test Standard...

 

[Prince EWS]

The funny thing about Vaughans bowling is that it was actually better than then specialist spinner a few tests. Namely, Richard Dawson. But Vaughan wasnt used at all!

As despite the fact that Gayle doesnt spin the ball, he is still a spinner..... he couldnt be called anything else, and there are other spinners just like him.

 

[Rik]

The funny thing about Vaughans bowling is that it was actually better than then specialist spinner a few tests. Namely, Richard Dawson. But Vaughan wasnt used at all!

As despite the fact that Gayle doesnt spin the ball, he is still a spinner..... he couldnt be called anything else, and there are other spinners just like him.

Ever seen Fleming bowl? He's not a spinner, but he's slower than most! Gayle's...errm...more slow medium from what I've seen, doesn't spin it at all and bowls off one pace, just like Hooper...but he could turn it a bit.

Dawson was useless, but Vaughan wasn't bowled enough to see how good or bad he was. He did get Sachin with a beuty and outshone Giles yet again though...

 

[Prince EWS]

I have nver seen Fleming bowl. Wish I had though... is he at least accurate?

And Gayle does roll his finger over the ball like an off spinner. And I have seen him turn it four or five while playing against Australia in WI (the same series he got his BB). I think he could turn it more if he bowled slower, which he occasiionally does.

I guess I never really questioned Gayle's classification. He is called an offspinner on cricinfo, by all the TV stations, the radio stations etc. so I just accepted it.

 

[Rik]

I have nver seen Fleming bowl. Wish I had though... is he at least accurate?

And Gayle does roll his finger over the ball like an off spinner. And I have seen him turn it four or five while playing against Australia in WI (the same series he got his BB). I think he could turn it more if he bowled slower, which he occasiionally does.

I guess I never really questioned Gayle's classification. He is called an offspinner on cricinfo, by all the TV stations, the radio stations etc. so I just accepted it.

Fleming? Accurate? :rolleyes:

He's pretty awful! He bowled 2 overs for Middlesex when he played for them. Went for 19. Bowled 17 overs in FC Cricket with an econ of 7.18, 2 maidens, 129 runs and no wickets...

 

[Prince EWS]

Well then the question has to be posed. Why did he bowl those overs??

 

[marc71178]

Rik, can you honestly say you could see Vaughan taking 8 wickets in a match on consecutive games?

Giles has proven himself more than capable in helpful conditions, and there's a school of thought that he'll get them in the West Indies.

Also, I seem to remember he picked up 6 in his only match in the Ashes last year, so he can't be that bad.

 

[marc71178]

Well then the question has to be posed. Why did he bowl those overs??

Declaration Bowling?

 

[Craig]

Rik, can you honestly say you could see Vaughan taking 8 wickets in a match on consecutive games?

Giles has proven himself more than capable in helpful conditions, and there's a school of thought that he'll get them in the West Indies.

Also, I seem to remember he picked up 6 in his only match in the Ashes last year, so he can't be that bad.

So that makes him a good spinner now? His previous match against the Aussies (before that last Ashes match) he got carted.

 

[marc71178]

Where did I say that.

All along with Giles I have taken the stance that he is not actually as bad as a lot of people like to make out.

 

[Rik]

Rik, can you honestly say you could see Vaughan taking 8 wickets in a match on consecutive games?

Giles has proven himself more than capable in helpful conditions, and there's a school of thought that he'll get them in the West Indies.

Also, I seem to remember he picked up 6 in his only match in the Ashes last year, so he can't be that bad.

No but I can't see Giles taking 8 wickets in a match more than once every few years, so if that's Test Standard then, jeez.

 

[Rik]

Where did I say that.

All along with Giles I have taken the stance that he is not actually as bad as a lot of people like to make out.

And many people make the point that he's nowhere near as good as you make him out to be...

 

[marc71178]

Except I have never claimed him to be good, just not as bad as people make out.

And given the right conditions, he is up there with the best in the World.

 

[Rik]

Except I have never claimed him to be good, just not as bad as people make out.

And given the right conditions, he is up there with the best in the World.

Hang on, you've just said he's not very good, then said in the right conditions he's a world beater...anyone else find this amusing?

 

[marc71178]

No, that's not what I said at all.

All I said was I haven't ever claimed him to be good, but that he isn't as bad as others say (using the conditions as a reason why)

 

[Rik]

No, that's not what I said at all.

All I said was I haven't ever claimed him to be good, but that he isn't as bad as others say (using the conditions as a reason why)

Look, of course it was what you said, you posted it for gawd's sake! You said that you didn't think Giles was very good yet in the right conditions he's a World Beater...do you want me to quote your post again just to prove you did? Really? Ok I will then:

Except I have never claimed him to be good, just not as bad as people make out.

And given the right conditions, he is up there with the best in the World.

Now, again I'll ask you, how does that work? Are you going to deny you posted that? Are you going to tell me that saying a bowler isn't very good then following that up with "And given the right conditions, he is up there with the best in the World" doesn't create a quite hillarious contradiction? Of course, you could just be saying you didn't mean what you posted, but then, if that's the case, why did you say it in the 1st place?

 

[marc71178]

Just carry on and twist whatever is posted all you like, but I have never said he is either good or bad - I did post that I have never claimed him to be good, but that doesn't mean I don't think that, just that I've never said it, which is what is being levelled at me.

If conditions are right he is a very good bowler, when they are not he isn't as effective, but still bowls to the plan set out for him.

 

[Rik]

Just carry on and twist whatever is posted all you like, but I have never said he is either good or bad - I did post that I have never claimed him to be good, but that doesn't mean I don't think that, just that I've never said it, which is what is being levelled at me.

If conditions are right he is a very good bowler, when they are not he isn't as effective, but still bowls to the plan set out for him.

And it gets better! I'm supposed to be twisting what you've said...right...so explain to me one thing, how can I twist what you've said by quoting it and not modifying it one jot? That would mean the only person twisting what you were saying, would be you...

 

[marc71178]

Point to me where I have, in this thread, said Giles is good or Giles is bad then.

You won't be able to because I haven't.