Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[fredfertang]

Which doesn't explain why virtually every England bowler to take more than 200 Test wickets are Northerners.

Did you see Harry and Paul last week?

 

[Furball]

Yeah within most state schools I think it's pretty woeful. My school was pretty good and all Grammar schools will have fantastic facilities.

Something I've long argued when talking about the state of Scottish football.

Our schools are utterly pathetic when it comes to providing sports coaching.

 

[Furball]

Did you see Harry and Paul last week?

You've lost me.

 

[Howe_zat]

Which doesn't explain why virtually every England bowler to take more than 200 Test wickets are Northerners.

Because all northerners are working class...

 

[fredfertang]

You've lost me.

Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse - a sketch about the Henley Royal Northener Show - starts at about 13.16

 

[Xuhaib]

Interesting question this. England have usually been crap at cricket for the last twenty years. So it's probably got something to do with that.

To look at it from another perspective, you could ask: why are other countries producing ATG players? Pakistan in particular is a pretty strange case. Especially if you change "ATG" to "phenomenal talent". Why do Pakistan keep getting players like Wasim, Waqar, Inzamam, Saqlain, Younis, Yousuf, Asif.. even Aamer? Without wanting to get into debating the merits of any specific player, England really haven't been producing players of that level. On the other hand, they can call on plenty of solid middle order batsmen or backup swing bowlers to do a job when their front line breaks down. As we saw during the summer, once you shave the top-class surface off the top of Pakistani cricket, there really isn't much at all underneath- especially in batting.

I would maybe hypothesise that coaching and infrastructure are what it takes for maximising the potential of the above-average talents in cricket, but mass participation is what gives a country a good shot at producing some of the seriously good players.

In Pakistan the selection processed is messed up there are only two ways you can make it to the top have uncles and fathers involved in the selection process or be so incredibly good that no one can ignore or sideline you.

 

[smash84]

In Pakistan the selection processed is messed up there are only two ways you can make it to the top have uncles and fathers involved in the selection process or be so incredibly good that no one can ignore or sideline you.

Interesting point. Even Imran made it into the national side because he had a lot of contacts in the cricket board as well along with the fact that some of his cousins were former Pakistan captains or current players IIRC.

 

[thierry henry]

What I've learnt from this thread is that the Poms badly overrate their rugger chaps (it's nauseating to hear about the ATG status of Bob Plodder and Jim Scrummington and 20 other blokes no-one has ever heard of) and they seriously underrate Lennox Lewis.

 

[Goughy]

On a seperate but related note, does Ian Botham class himself as a Northerner?

Ive never read his own thoughts on the matter.

He was born in the North, his parents family all come from Yorkshire, his wife is from Yorkshire, his kids were born in Yorkshire, he lived -and still does- in Yorkshire since the mid-70s, played for Durham at cricket and football for S****horpe yet he was educated and raised in the South and made his career in Somerset.

Ive always classed him as nearly a Yorkshireman (a rare compliment) but I dont know his own opinions about himself.

EDIT-- Nevermind, I found a couple of articles where he refers to himself (mistakenly IMO) as a Yorkshireman including
"I am lucky. I don’t get hangovers - probably because I’m a Yorkshire lad who can handle booze."
http://news24online.com/How-Ian-Botham-leads-a-healthy-lifestyle_News24_17431.aspx

 

[NasserFan207]

What I've learnt from this thread is that the Poms badly overrate their rugger chaps (it's nauseating to hear about the ATG status of Bob Plodder and Jim Scrummington and 20 other blokes no-one has ever heard of) and they seriously underrate Lennox Lewis.

Lewis is definitely an ATG imo, but maybe people in this thread are more Rugby fans than Boxing ones.

Is Ian Botham a Northerner? Listen to his voice.

I think so far we've learnt that Sport is handled well in Australia and NZ, poorly in the UK, yet still better than Pakistan.

You'd wonder how good Pakistan would be if cricket was actually sensibly run and controlled in that country.

 

[smash84]

What I've learnt from this thread is that the Poms badly overrate their rugger chaps (it's nauseating to hear about the ATG status of Bob Plodder and Jim Scrummington and 20 other blokes no-one has ever heard of) and they seriously underrate Lennox Lewis.

so true

 

[ImpatientLime]

OT, but Lennox Lewis is a lock top ten of all time heavyweight and a strong shout for the top ten. The only three that should certainly rank above him are Ali, Louis and Holmes.

 

[ankitj]

What I've learnt from this thread is that the Poms badly overrate their rugger chaps (it's nauseating to hear about the ATG status of Bob Plodder and Jim Scrummington and 20 other blokes no-one has ever heard of) and they seriously underrate Lennox Lewis.

Laughter we all need

 

[Chubb]

On a seperate but related note, does Ian Botham class himself as a Northerner?

Ive never read his own thoughts on the matter.

He was born in the North, his parents family all come from Yorkshire, his wife is from Yorkshire, his kids were born in Yorkshire, he lived -and still does- in Yorkshire since the mid-70s, played for Durham at cricket and football for S****horpe yet he was educated and raised in the South and made his career in Somerset.

Ive always classed him as nearly a Yorkshireman (a rare compliment) but I dont know his own opinions about himself.

EDIT-- Nevermind, I found a couple of articles where he refers to himself (mistakenly IMO) as a Yorkshireman including
"I am lucky. I don’t get hangovers - probably because I’m a Yorkshire lad who can handle booze."
How Ian Botham leads a healthy lifestyle?

He is not a Yorkshireman. He is as Somerset as a scrumpy-addled farmer sleeping on a bench in the graveyard of the parish church of Stogumber while listening to The Wurzels.

 

[Faisal1985]

Cuz England's weather sucks....like someone said in that Ashes thread.

 

[Furball]

On a seperate but related note, does Ian Botham class himself as a Northerner?

Ive never read his own thoughts on the matter.

He was born in the North, his parents family all come from Yorkshire, his wife is from Yorkshire, his kids were born in Yorkshire, he lived -and still does- in Yorkshire since the mid-70s, played for Durham at cricket and football for S****horpe yet he was educated and raised in the South and made his career in Somerset.

Ive always classed him as nearly a Yorkshireman (a rare compliment) but I dont know his own opinions about himself.

EDIT-- Nevermind, I found a couple of articles where he refers to himself (mistakenly IMO) as a Yorkshireman including
"I am lucky. I don’t get hangovers - probably because I’m a Yorkshire lad who can handle booze."
How Ian Botham leads a healthy lifestyle?

I would say so. He's given Nasser Hussain plenty of banter on Sky because Hussain is a southerner.

 

[cricket100%]

Probably a player who excels at Test level for most of their career, rather than than just two or three years. Flintoff had a great period of form, and was a very good bowler, but a great he is not.

Also a massive at the South Africa joke. Original.

I have another one for you.
Q: Where do the English cricket team stay when they are touring South-Africa?
A: With their parents.

 

[Shri]

Thats new around here!

 

[smash84]

I have another one for you.
Q: Where do the English cricket team stay when they are touring South-Africa?
A: With their parents.

lol....good one

 

[MW1304]

OT, but Lennox Lewis is a lock top ten of all time heavyweight and a strong shout for the top ten. The only three that should certainly rank above him are Ali, Louis and Holmes.

Baaaaaaahahahahahaha!!!

I have another one for you.
Q: Where do the English cricket team stay when they are touring South-Africa?
A: With their parents.

......................................Baaaaaaahahahahahaha!!!

(Hint: laughing at, not with)