Why can't India produce great fast bowlers like Pakistan?

[smash84]

PCB has nothing to do with it. I think its due to the difference in street cricket that Indian youngsters play and what Pakistanis play. I don't think in India there is a concept of tapeball bowling a lot of my Indian mates played with a rubber ball with more bounce instead of tapeball which bounces less but its lighter so kids try to bowl fast yorkers as much as possible.

Obviously that is not the only reason of good fast bowlers coming out of Pak but it has a lot to do with it. Moreover, after Imran and 2 Ws bowling had become a big focus of youngsters who wanted to play cricket.

In India kids may imitate Sachin, Ganguly, Gavaskar etc. In Pak they try to become like Imran, Akram, Waqar, Akhtar etc. its a mental thing too.

Excellent post. I believe you hit the nail on the head.

There are a lot of factors but one which is over looked is genetics.

By nature they do not produce athletes with fast twice muscle fibers like the West Indies for example. This makes it hard to bowl really fast.

You don't see many sprinters from India for the same reason.

People in India and Pakistan are not really that different genetically. Pakistan used to be a part of India and the Pakistani Punjab and the Indian Punjab were one big province under British Rule.

Aamer and Asif are as good as Fazal Mahmood and Khan Mohammad atm they are not coming back and rightly so.

Aaaagghhh....blasphemy...using Amir and Asif's name in the same breath as Fazal Mahmood and Khan Mohammad.

 

[Dissector]

People in India and Pakistan are not really that different genetically. Pakistan used to be a part of India and the Pakistani Punjab and the Indian Punjab were one big province under British Rule.

People on both sides of the border in Punjab are genetically similar but they are different from people in,say, South India. That is the point of the OP. The problem for India is that while Pakistani Punjab has a huge cricket tradition, Indian Punjab doesn't. But if the BCCI invests in creating top-class coaching facilities like a fast bowling academy in Punjab you could gradually build a cricketing culture and produce better fast bowlers.

It's an unfortunate accident that the one company willing to invest in fast-bowling coaching, MRF (Madras Rubber Factory), was based in the South and naturally opened their academy there.

 

[smash84]

People on both sides of the border in Punjab are genetically similar but they are different from people in,say, South India. That is the point of the OP. The problem for India is that while Pakistani Punjab has a huge cricket tradition, Indian Punjab doesn't. But if the BCCI invests in creating top-class coaching facilities like a fast bowling academy in Punjab you could gradually build a cricketing culture and produce better fast bowlers.

It's an unfortunate accident that the one company willing to invest in fast-bowling coaching, MRF (Madras Rubber Factory), was based in the South and naturally opened their academy there.

Where are all the other big groups like Reliance, Tata, etc based???

 

[Dissector]

Though thinking about it a bit more I wonder if in the last couple of years someone like Zaheer has perfected a style of bowling that appears to work even on Indian wickets without much pace. The traditional thinking has been that on the subcontinent you need raw pace in the air to make up for the lack of bounce but Zaheer seems to manage at 80mph with a canny mixture of regular and reverse swing. Perhaps he could be the role model which inspires bowlers of relatively average build to become world class.

 

[Dissector]

Where are all the other big groups like Reliance, Tata, etc based???

Mostly in Bombay. There are companies based in North India but they haven't chosen to invest in cricket facilities, specifically fast bowling. The only company doing that is MRF.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Woot, my two favourite subjects, height and speed.

Despite the talk about Pakistanis being better "built" for fast bowling, a lot of them are really very small for fast bowlers. Akhtar is 5'11", for example, and there are a number of others of similar stature- I don't think Riaz or Ahmed are much taller, and Umar Gul looks tall by comparison but is really only 6'1"- 6'2", and about 3 foot of that is his head.

Mark Richardson was interviewing Waqar Younis the other day and I was a little taken aback that they are basically the same height, so about 5'10"ish. I know he isn't a fast bowler, but Shahid Afridi is nevertheless built like an archetypal strong Pakistani cricketer, yet he is clearly shorter than Ross Taylor, so again, no more than 5'11". I daresay Rana Naved and Razzaq are similar and Sami a bit shorter.

It's funny because in the last 20 years I can only think of Danny Morrison and Andre Adams as NZ pacers of similar stature, yet Pakistan have a production line of blokes who can nudge up to 140kph or higher. I know height is useful, but are NZ missing a trick somewhere with the relentless 6'3" and over 130kph bowlers? You can't really say Pakistanis are built for pace bowling in the conventional sense as by international standards a lot of their quicks are tiny.

You're using average NZ heights as a standard though, huge flaw/assumption. Taller = better fast bowler isn't necessarily true. There's probably an optimum height and build combination for fast bowlers.

 

[Xuhaib]

Mostly in Bombay. There are companies based in North India but they haven't chosen to invest in cricket facilities, specifically fast bowling. The only company doing that is MRF.

what about Pepsi India, Pepsi Pakistan is heavily spending on cricket acadamies in Pakistan.

http://www.awamiweb.com/pcb-pepsi-launch-talented-youth-cricket-stars-651.html

 

[G.I.Joe]

Pepsi India spends on Shah Rukh Khan.

 

[Dissector]

Pepsi sponsored a massive and idiotic ad campaign centred around the Indian cricket team a few years ago and got badly burnt when they crashed out of the world cup. I don't think they invest in cricket coaching facilities though.

From the corporate promotion point of view it probably doesn't make sense replicating what some other company is doing. The MRF Pace Factory is well known; it's unlikely another company will open a second pace academy. The BCCI will have to do it and certainly has the resources to do it.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Pepsi sponsored a massive and idiotic ad campaign centred around the Indian cricket team a few years ago and got badly burnt when they crashed out of the world cup. I don't think they invest in cricket coaching facilities though.

I liked Pepsi Blue. Stupid Indian team put an end to that

 

[smash84]

You're using average NZ heights as a standard though, huge flaw/assumption. Taller = better fast bowler isn't necessarily true. There's probably an optimum height and build combination for fast bowlers.

True. Wasim was the tallest Pak fast bowler (and probably the slowest of Imran, Waqar, Shoaib, and himself) and not necessarily the best either.

I have also seen taller bowlers than Richard Hadlee represent NZ but none have been close in being as good as he was.

 

[smash84]

Mostly in Bombay. There are companies based in North India but they haven't chosen to invest in cricket facilities, specifically fast bowling. The only company doing that is MRF.

These groups have tons of money and it would be a good idea to invest a bit in cricket infra-structure rather than the Mumbai Indians. At least cricket infra-structure would probably be more useful in the long run.

 

[Shri]

Cutting down the no. of teams in the domestic competition and going into a franchise system like South Africa's will help the overall quality of cricket imo. Not just fast bowling.

 

[Xuhaib]

Cutting down the no. of teams in the domestic competition and going into a franchise system like South Africa's will help the overall quality of cricket imo. Not just fast bowling.

not feasible for a huge country like India all its going to do is neglect talents from the less prominent parts of the country from what I gather players like Sree and Pujara belong to the lesser known states.

 

[Migara]

PCB has nothing to do with it. I think its due to the difference in street cricket that Indian youngsters play and what Pakistanis play. I don't think in India there is a concept of tapeball bowling a lot of my Indian mates played with a rubber ball with more bounce instead of tapeball which bounces less but its lighter so kids try to bowl fast yorkers as much as possible.

AWTA.
Exact reason why SL produce unorthodox cricketers. Here we play with the "burnt" tennis ball which cuts off the surface when bounces, so has to play very late. That's why SL batsmen excel in later cuts and dabs, and play with great hand speeds than using arms and forearms to force the issue. (Classic cases Mahela and Dilshan). The exact reason why SL don't have many big hitters like India or Pakistan (although SL people are bit bigger physically than Indians). Bowlers tryout many grips and actions just to offer something new to the batsman. There are lot of carom ball bowlers in softball cricket in SL. That's why we don't produce many hit the deck hard bowlers as well. With the burnt ball what you need is line and length plus variation of the pace you bowl. And it is exactly re percussed national team where you have a lot of unorthodox bowlers.

The street cricket is the breeding ground of international cricketers in Asia. The way it is played is reflected in what we see at the highest level.

 

[Migara]

Woot, my two favourite subjects, height and speed.

Despite the talk about Pakistanis being better "built" for fast bowling, a lot of them are really very small for fast bowlers. Akhtar is 5'11", for example, and there are a number of others of similar stature- I don't think Riaz or Ahmed are much taller, and Umar Gul looks tall by comparison but is really only 6'1"- 6'2", and about 3 foot of that is his head.

Mark Richardson was interviewing Waqar Younis the other day and I was a little taken aback that they are basically the same height, so about 5'10"ish. I know he isn't a fast bowler, but Shahid Afridi is nevertheless built like an archetypal strong Pakistani cricketer, yet he is clearly shorter than Ross Taylor, so again, no more than 5'11". I daresay Rana Naved and Razzaq are similar and Sami a bit shorter.

It's funny because in the last 20 years I can only think of Danny Morrison and Andre Adams as NZ pacers of similar stature, yet Pakistan have a production line of blokes who can nudge up to 140kph or higher. I know height is useful, but are NZ missing a trick somewhere with the relentless 6'3" and over 130kph bowlers? You can't really say Pakistanis are built for pace bowling in the conventional sense as by international standards a lot of their quicks are tiny.

Too much height may be disadvantages and there may be a ideal height for a fast bowler. But with each race, this ideal height may change. With local experience, our best fast bowlers had been around 5' 10" - 6' (Vaas, Malinga, Rumesh Ratnayake, Kulasekara). The guys who have been taller, and supposed to be built stronger were very fragile creatures (Zoysa 6' 4", Fernando 6' 3" and Ravi Ratnayake 6' 3", Nissanka 6' 2"). And shorter ones than 5' 10" just lacked enough pace, except for Prasad.

West Indian bowlers were tall and fast, but looks like that was only a few generations of bowlers were like that (starting from Roberts and ending with Walsh). Or the taller guys may be taking up other sports. WI situation we don't know, but it's apparent that their fast bowlers are also around 6' in height, when we consider real fast ones like Lawson, Edwards, Taylor and Roach.

 

[Migara]

People on both sides of the border in Punjab are genetically similar but they are different from people in,say, South India.

But still the problem remains. SL people are just extremely similar to South Indians in their genetic makeup, and South India has a population of 15 times as SL. But we managed to produce at least 5 test quality fast medium bowlers in last 15 years, and few quite quick ones too. Eating a lot of fish may be the case when it comes to diet. Other than that I can't recall any difference between South India and SL.

 

[TumTum]

AWTA.
Exact reason why SL produce unorthodox cricketers. Here we play with the "burnt" tennis ball which cuts off the surface when bounces, so has to play very late. That's why SL batsmen excel in later cuts and dabs, and play with great hand speeds than using arms and forearms to force the issue. (Classic cases Mahela and Dilshan). The exact reason why SL don't have many big hitters like India or Pakistan (although SL people are bit bigger physically than Indians). Bowlers tryout many grips and actions just to offer something new to the batsman. There are lot of carom ball bowlers in softball cricket in SL. That's why we don't produce many hit the deck hard bowlers as well. With the burnt ball what you need is line and length plus variation of the pace you bowl. And it is exactly re percussed national team where you have a lot of unorthodox bowlers.

The street cricket is the breeding ground of international cricketers in Asia. The way it is played is reflected in what we see at the highest level.

Could you explain me more of this "burnt" ball?

 

[Dissector]

But still the problem remains. SL people are just extremely similar to South Indians in their genetic makeup, and South India has a population of 15 times as SL. But we managed to produce at least 5 test quality fast medium bowlers in last 15 years, and few quite quick ones too. Eating a lot of fish may be the case when it comes to diet. Other than that I can't recall any difference between South India and SL.

Well we are talking about fast bowlers of the Imran/Waqar/Wasim quality. SL hasn't produced any of those either.

 

[Migara]

Could you explain me more of this "burnt" ball?

Tennis ball is roasted in an open fire until the outer coat of wool melts and forms a hard plastic like crust. Then it travel through air quickly, moves off the surface and skids. If you pu in enough shoulders will bounce too. For spinners it will drift in the air without much difference in the amount of spin, but will skid on after pitching. Batsman has to play very late, especially when the bowler is putting some spin on it or when it pitches in good L&L