Why aren't South Africa a better side?

[PhoenixFire]

Prince wouldn't be playing if there was no Quotas IMO.

 

[Pratters]

Prince wouldn't be playing if there was no Quotas IMO.

Prince since his return to international cricket:

filtered 16 25 3 1069 139* 131 119 48.59 4 3 0

Hardly bad eh? Also, his one day international average at 39 isn't crap.

 

[PhoenixFire]

I can think of a few white players that are better than Prince who aren't playing.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Prince- Not a young man anymore and not a Test quality player. His future is limited by new players coming through and his own lack of ability. He is only just an above average player on the SA domestic scene

185 runs from his first 11 innings in Test cricket. He then scored 139* v Zimbabwe and has since notched tons against the West Indies, Australia and New Zealand. He averages 48.59 over his last 25 Test innings (ie since those first 11). Take out the 139* and he still averages 42.27 against teams other than Zimbabwe since that initial 12-innings run.

Inconsistent, yes, but certainly not as bad a batsman as you make him out to be.

 

[Langeveldt]

The latest Titans side, with from what I can tell 3-4 non white players (Bodi, Reddy, Thomas, Behardien?).. Not five

wicket-keeper HG Kuhn c & b Benkenstein 89 125 104 10 1 85.57
GH Bodi c & b AM Amla 71 105 73 10 1 97.26
F du Plessis c Watson b Abdullah 40 53 42 3 0 95.23
JA Morkel run out (wicket-keeperBrown/Abdullah) 57 42 42 4 4 135.71
captain G Dros c Klusener b Louw 2 6 3 0 0 66.66
JG Myburgh c HM Amla b Louw 5 9 4 0 0 125.00
BL Reddy c Govender b Louw 1 8 2 0 0 50.00
P de Bruyn not out 1 6 2 0 0 50.00
F Behardien not out 2 3 2 0 0 100.00
Extras (lb 12, w 9, nb 4) 25

Total (7 wickets; 45 overs; 178 mins) 293

Did not bat AC Thomas, DW Steyn

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Because

1) Case can be made for colored players being favoured to an extent even in Cronje's time.

The point is, though, that they weren't favoured as strongly as they are now.

 

[Pratters]

The point is, though, that they weren't favoured as strongly as they are now.

Yeah that is the point Goughy is making but my point was even if we take that to be true, if a couple of players more are preferred because of quotas, how can Goughy come to such a simplistic answer - quotas and disregard other factors given the other factors are so large.

 

[Pratters]

I can think of a few white players that are better than Prince who aren't playing.

Firstly that is disputable. I can think players x,y, z are better in a country based on stats or what I have seen but there is no way of proving regarding international level. Secondly, Prince deserved his chance after FC run beginning from 2003/04 and hasn't exactly done much wrong after being given a chance. So please cut the slack.

 

[sideshowtim]

Yep,

And its not just in cricket. Its all previously 'white' sports but not 'black' sports such as soccer. Rugby is the other big one where quotas are hotly debated. They are also bizzare situations in minority sports where there very few black participants like sailing crews etc that still have quotas.

And to think this country is going to be hosting the soccer World Cup in 2010...FIFA has tried as hard as any other organisation to eradicate racism and here we are in South Africa where they have to have a certain amount of players of a certain colour. Terrible.

 

[Langeveldt]

And to think this country is going to be hosting the soccer World Cup in 2010...FIFA has tried as hard as any other organisation to eradicate racism and here we are in South Africa where they have to have a certain amount of players of a certain colour. Terrible.

In football there are no quotas, because 90% of football players in SA are black

 

[Goughy]

Because

1) Case can be made for colored players being favoured to an extent even in Cronje's time.
2) There are other big factors which cannot be ignored. For instance..

South Africa don't have Allan Donald now or a big replacement. Pollock is declining. South Africa don't have the all rounders they had before. The captain isn't black and yet he isn't half as good as Cronje was.

I wouldn't put it down to 1 reason frankly.

1) It was nowhere close to the current situation. Cronje had a near all white team. Gibbs and Adams played some games but there is a case to be made that they got there on merit not on tokenism. Gibbs was well known coming out of his 'white' school and Adams filled a void that SA had. It was not as if he was keeping a long line of talented white spinners from playing. As well as being good publicity, he could possibly have been the best available at the time. As for Ntini, he only played 4 games under Cronje and is irrelevant in this discussion.

Quite simply there was nowhere near the pressure of quotas, targets etc during Cronjes reign and that made the team vastly superior as it had the nations best players on the field.

2) The current captain is a fool. Of that I agree. This is pure speculation, not fact based like the other stuff I mention, but I cant help but think that part of the reason he was appointed so young is that he was inexperienced and politically weak and could be easier controlled by the board.

An ovioulsy there is no Allan Donald. These are all factors, but secondary to the fact that there is a system that prevents the best XI playing.

 

[Goughy]

There are no Quota players in SA's 1st XI as far as I'm concerned

 

[Pratters]

An ovioulsy there is no Allan Donald. These are all factors, but secondary to the fact that there is a system that prevents the best XI playing.

Right we disagree on the degree of effect of colour selection compared to other factors when comparing RSA under Cronje vs RSA now.

Cheers..

 

[Langeveldt]

Name them then?! Gibbs? Ntini? Prince? All in on merit in my book..

In ODI's Peterson is a token pick, but thats about it.. In the test game, Tsolekile and Peterson are the only players I can think of who were picked because of the colour of their skin.

 

[Goughy]

Name them then?! Gibbs? Ntini? Prince? All in on merit in my book..

In ODI's Peterson is a token pick, but thats about it.. In the test game, Tsolekile and Peterson are the only players I can think of who were picked because of the colour of their skin.

2 quick points

- Its not a question of whether you think they exist, its a matter of it being a fact. It has been mandated that the ODI squad for the WC must have 6-7 players of colour.

- Since Cronje retired 8 non-white players have debuted. With Gibbs and Ntini usually taking 2 of the min 3 pref 4 places.

Prince- Debuted far too early and was not ready. Was given every oppotunity and groomed to be an important player. Given special treatment within SA cricket to be groomed to fill one of the quota places. Still not in the top 8-10 batsmen in SA
Amla- Debuted far too early and was not ready. I actually rate him but I know your opinion
Tsolekile- Not good enough and not in the top 5 keepers in SA IMO
Ngam- Debuted far to early and not good enough.
Ontong- Not a good enough batsman and bowler and debuted before he was close to deserving it.
Langeveldt- Decent player, not top class or real test quality
Peterson- Not quite sure what he does. Equally bad with bat and ball.
Zondeki- Debuted before he was ready and not skilled enough

Now don't get me wrong. Few of these are terrible cricketers, they are just not the best in SA. An all non-white SA team would be far too strong for Zim and Bang.

Its just silly to think that there are not targets at the International level. The reason a lot of these guys were thrown in too early is because of political pressure and to fill a gap in the quota.

 

[Johnners]

Whatever Happened to Neil McKenzie?? From what i recall he was a classy batsmen, and made a brilliant 4th innings knock to win SA's only test match against Australia in the 01-02 series. Of late, from what i've seen, his first class form has been strong, and imo he's a better bat than Amla, and several other players who's names were mentioned as candidates for a middle order spot. Surely this was due to coloured player selection quota than anything else?

 

[tooextracool]

Firstly it should be pointed out that they are not that bad in Tests and if anything has let them down recently it has been their catching.

Also they are favourites to beat India and Pakistan in this SA summer.

However, addressing your point. The players you mention are not as good as you state.

Smith- Technical issue that has been exploited, problems handling the pressures of captaincy have put an additional burden on his batting
Gibbs- A touch player that can never be relied upon. Best suited to going in with smith at the top of the order, but often fails to get his feet moving and scores runs by throwing his hands at the ball rather than transfering weight i.e. plays away from his body
Kallis- No arguments, World Class
Pollock- On the down side of his career. No longer the player he was 5 years ago. Bowls medium pace and is no longer penetrative.
Ntini- In a golden run of form. Still has a terrible record outside SA. I have issues with his variation and how he takes wickets but he theoretically could continue to be this successful
Boucher- Wicketkeeper and lower end batsman. Limited in what he can do to win games. A very average batsman at Test level
Prince- Not a young man anymore and not a Test quality player. His future is limited by new players coming through and his own lack of ability. He is only just an above average player on the SA domestic scene
Nel- Is it too early to call him finished? Maybe but he is nowhere near the player he was in the West Indies a few years ago. From 150 kpm to 125-130 kpm in a couple of years. A shadow of his former self and his test spot is under threat.

Agree with everything you said. Top post.

 

[Goughy]

Secondly, Prince deserved his chance after FC run beginning from 2003/04 and hasn't exactly done much wrong after being given a chance. So please cut the slack.

Cant believe I missed this 1st time round. Prince has not done anything Domestically in FC since 2003/04.

2003/04 ranked 46th in batting average
2004/05 ranked 41st in batting average
2005/06- Did not play SA domestic FC

The following batsmen scored more runs AND at a better average in BOTH 03/04 AND 05/06

Puttick
Z de Bruyn
JP Duminy
H Amla
DJ Cullinan
JL Ontong
D Jacobs
M van Wyk

and that obviously does not include International players as they are on duty.

Ranking over 40th for 2 years in a row does not qualify as a good run.

 

[tooextracool]

Whatever Happened to Neil McKenzie?? From what i recall he was a classy batsmen, and made a brilliant 4th innings knock to win SA's only test match against Australia in the 01-02 series. Of late, from what i've seen, his first class form has been strong, and imo he's a better bat than Amla, and several other players who's names were mentioned as candidates for a middle order spot. Surely this was due to coloured player selection quota than anything else?

Was an appalling player of spin. Dont know if hes improved since then, perhaps he deserves more chances over Rudolph and co.

 

[tooextracool]

What about the lack of emergence of any quality all rounder? Kallis and Pollock dont merit being called all rounders these days, and back in the 90s when they were actually competitive they had players like Klusener(for a while), a young Pollock and Brian Mcmillan who were more than useful with both ball and bat.