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Who is really to blame for Australia's batting collapses post 2007 in Ashes series?

Ruckus

International Captain
As Joao said though, it isn't Watson's fault that the batting line-up below him is as fragile as hell. If he was in a side with in-form batsmen, nobody would even be bringing it up. Most likely, people would be saying how useful it is he always gets the team off to a good start.
 

Top_Cat

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Not true at all. A big chunk of why Mike Slater was dropped towards the end of the 2001 Ashes series was for not kicking on, despite squillions of runs being scored below him. The last 15 years has seen an Aussie side with phenomenal conversion rates so it hasn't been an issue for a long time.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
I agree with your point but Slats had a pretty dismal record for a year before he was dropped. You dont keep players like that in the side when you have the kind of backup players Australia had back then.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
Or the fact he had a piss poor average for the series... He didn't even get the chance the 'kick on', he only reached 50 once.
 

Top_Cat

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I agree with your point but Slats had a pretty dismal record for a year before he was dropped. You dont keep players like that in the side when you have the kind of backup players Australia had back then.
:huh:

Averaged 40 in 2001.

Just proves the point, though. Despite keeping his average up, he was inconsistent. Got 90-odd against the WI at the SCG, a few high 40's in India before the Ashes, got a half-ton and a couple of starts early in the Ashes. Even in a top team, it was a problem so they replaced him. Point is, Watto's lack of conversion is an issue no matter how the team is doing.
 
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Top_Cat

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Or the fact he had a piss poor average for the series... He didn't even get the chance the 'kick on', he only reached 50 once.
20-odd = a start, of which Slater got a couple. He was in, got past the awkward early stages of batting and should have kicked on to 50 or more having got there, regardless of who was below him or how the team was doing.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
:huh:

Averaged 40 in 2001.

Just proves the point, though. Despite keeping his average up, he was inconsistent. Got 90-odd against the WI at the SCG, a few high 40's in India before the Ashes, got a half-ton and a couple of starts early in the Ashes. Even in a top team, it was a problem so they replaced him. Point is, Watto's lack of conversion is an issue no matter how the team is doing.
I suspect you already know what I was getting at here. Slats may have averaged 40, but that was because of a relatively good series against one of the worst WI sides to tour Australia in the past few decades. His performances against England in England, India in India and NZ in Nz all 3 of whom had pretty decent attacks at the time was ordinary. And given the England and India series were his most recent 7 test matches you can certainly see why he had pressure on him.
 

Joao

U19 12th Man
Maybe Watson is choking in the 50s so much because the pressure of know if he gets out, the rest won't score anything? Imagine constantly getting to 50 as an opener and finding yourself at 4/100? I would be very surprised if he didn't kick on a bit more if he had some stability at the other end.

I am not saying Watson is devoid of blame, just that he is getting far more than his fair share.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
20-odd = a start, of which Slater got a couple. He was in, got past the awkward early stages of batting and should have kicked on to 50 or more having got there, regardless of who was below him or how the team was doing.
I thought we were talking about 'kicking on' to 100 not 50, considering the context of the Watson discussion. Whatever the case though, I highly doubt Slater would have been dropped if his average wasn't sub-25 and something more like 40.
 

pup11

International Coach
As Joao said though, it isn't Watson's fault that the batting line-up below him is as fragile as hell. If he was in a side with in-form batsmen, nobody would even be bringing it up. Most likely, people would be saying how useful it is he always gets the team off to a good start.
To add to what T_C has said, Watto just can't hide behind the fact that he scores quick 40's and 50's so he is doing great service to the side.
On the contrary I think its unacceptable to see any test batsman that too an opener chucking away his wicket as regularly as Watto does after getting a start.
For me an opener's job is to make big runs once he gets a start and lay a foundation for the rest of the middle order, unfortunately Watto has failed to do that, hence his place should/would come under the scanner.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
^yep. Which is why getting two 50's is actually arguably better for the team than getting a 100 and a 0.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
Wouldn't really care tbh. You for some reason think there is a difference, but both are exactly the same in terms of match totals. If I was forced to pick though I'd take the two 50's.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Wouldn't really care tbh. You for some reason think there is a difference, but both are exactly the same in terms of match totals. If I was forced to pick though I'd take the two 50's.
500 and 200 is not the same as scoring 200 and 500 though.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Anyone got any stats on matches won where a first innings century has been scored, or anything?
 

Spikey

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jesus ****ing christ. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE SCORES. CRICKET IS A GAME WHERE ANY SMALL THING, INCULDING RUNNING A SINGLE INSTEAD OF TWO CAN CHANGE EVERYTHING. SCORING 500 IN THE SECOND INNINGS IS NOT THE SAME AS SCORING 500 IN THE FIRST INNINGS. ffs.
 

TumTum

Banned
jesus ****ing christ. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE SCORES. CRICKET IS A GAME WHERE ANY SMALL THING, INCULDING RUNNING A SINGLE INSTEAD OF TWO CAN CHANGE EVERYTHING. SCORING 500 IN THE SECOND INNINGS IS NOT THE SAME AS SCORING 500 IN THE FIRST INNINGS. ffs.
Don't just say context for the sake of it, give me examples where it would be different and we can discuss further.
 

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