Which players would be locks in every OTHER country’s ATG XI?

[subshakerz]

I already said why it makes sense, if both your bowling and batting, or atleast one becomes better and you feel you have a better team combination. What's the rocket science here. You are free to disagree absolutely, but always taking specialists is the best course isn't a great notion.

An attack of Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne is very balanced and viable.

The issue with him is always Imran. The rest he is okay with. He pretends to put Imran at no.8/9 or so among bowlers, but secretly rates him in the 20s.

 

[kyear2]

Border, Waugh, Ponting, Chappell, pick any two and they are all better than Kallis for me.

How?????

The only reason you rate Kallis lower is because we believe he was selfish.

Him being there isn't comparable to a Sutcliffe or Hutton and was around the same speed as Waugh, Border and at most slightly behind Chappell.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Okay I didn't know you regarded Kallis as a better bat than Ponting and Chappell. Then it's cool so you are consistent with your specialist first approach.

I don’t think he’s saying Kallis was better. He’s just saying they’re equal which is true tbh.

 

[subshakerz]

How?????

The only reason you rate Kallis lower is because we believe he was selfish.

Him being there isn't comparable to a Sutcliffe or Hutton and was around the same speed as Waugh, Border and at most slightly behind Chappell.

I never called Kallis selfish.

He was defensive and negative which doesn't gel at all with an Aussie batting lineup. Keep that stuff back in SA.

 

[Prince EWS]

Bradley Clyde

 

[capt_Luffy]

The ultimate battle (no 7349 this week):

We have our own:
Imran hater (somehow doesn't likes extra runs or good 5th bowlers, but head over heels for slip catchers (only slip though))

VS

Kallis hater (somehow thinks Kallis was very slow, but doesn't really have a problem with other slower batsmen).

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think he’s saying Kallis was better. He’s just saying they’re equal which is true tbh.

Don't think he considers them equals. That's why I want him to say it himself.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

How?????

The only reason you rate Kallis lower is because we believe he was selfish.

Him being there isn't comparable to a Sutcliffe or Hutton and was around the same speed as Waugh, Border and at most slightly behind Chappell.

Yeah for most of Kallis’s career his strike rate was just under 50. In his last few years I think he was in the mid 50s so showed he could score quickly.

People act like he was as slow as Dravid or Border for some reason.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah for most of Kallis’s career his strike rate was just under 50. In his last few years I think he was in the mid 50s so showed he could score quickly.

People act like he was as slow as Dravid or Border for some reason.

Again, the issue for most of his career was his inability to boost his rate of scoring to the circumstances.

 

[kyear2]

I already said why it makes sense, if both your bowling and batting, or atleast one becomes better and you feel you have a better team combination. What's the rocket science here. You are free to disagree absolutely, but always taking specialists is the best course isn't a great notion.

An attack of Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne is very balanced and viable.

But it's not a better team combination though.

So you're dropping Chappell or Border for Miller, and this is replacing ATGs with a significantly worse option, and for the purpose of filling, the 5th bowling spot.

Then to make up for that you're dropping your 2nd best pacer to get a bowler who was a better batsman.

You never make up the batting difference and for a bowler that will get at most a few over with the old ball while you're waiting for the new one. And you still get the more inferior bowler. You sacrifice batting for the 5th, then sacrifice bowling for the 2nd. Again, that's so inconsistent and doesn't make the team better.

Your other scenario is to omit your 2nd and 4th best bowler to facilitate selecting your 8th best.

Forget names, you have a group of 8 Bowlers to chose from and you're going to choose the last one because he can bat the best. And this is to go against the best if the very best opposition.
No one does that.

 

[kyear2]

I already said why it makes sense, if both your bowling and batting, or atleast one becomes better and you feel you have a better team combination. What's the rocket science here. You are free to disagree absolutely, but always taking specialists is the best course isn't a great notion.

An attack of Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne is very balanced and viable.

It's not the best and you're chosing the 3rd best bowler from one era while omitting two who were the best in theirs and who are both rated above him.

The poll results for Steyn vs Imran speak for themselves, McGrath is an easy no. 2

Yes the batting allows for one spot to be flexible. But within limits, and has to be a net win. We get none of that with Miller. A guy who averages 36 isn't impacting this series with the bat, and he'll have limited opportunities to impact with the ball.

 

[subshakerz]

But it's not a better team combination though.

So you're dropping Chappell or Border for Miller, and this is replacing ATGs with a significantly worse option, and for the purpose of filling, the 5th bowling spot.

Yeah but what if in his calculation a 5th bowler is more important?

Then to make up for that you're dropping your 2nd best pacer to get a bowler who was a better batsman.

A Hadlee McGrath swap similar to a Kallis Ponting swap for you.

You never make up the batting difference and for a bowler that will get at most a few over with the old ball while you're waiting for the new one. And you still get the more inferior bowler. You sacrifice batting for the 5th, then sacrifice bowling for the 2nd. Again, that's so inconsistent and doesn't make the team better.

It's all rather simple. He wants five class bowling options and doesn't see the differences between the ATG pacers like you.

Your other scenario is to omit your 2nd and 4th best bowler to facilitate selecting your 8th best.

Have you asked him his bowler rankings? Maybe it's not 8th or 28th like you.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not the best and you're chosing the 3rd best bowler from one era while omitting two who were the best in theirs and who are both rated above him.

If the goal is to have variety then Imran with reverse is great. Differences between them are minimal as you made clear with Kallis in the middle order.

Yes the batting allows for one spot to be flexible. But within limits, and has to be a net win. We get none of that with Miller. A guy who averages 36 isn't impacting this series with the bat, and he'll have limited opportunities to impact with the ball.

Wait you admit that Australia have the batting to spare and still want to deny Miller? That doesn't make sense.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran hater (somehow doesn't likes extra runs or good 5th bowlers, but head over heels for slip catchers (only slip though)).

Just to hammer this home, @kyear2 actually rates Kallis behind Ponting, but has no problem putting Kallis in the Aus side over Ponting for his bowling without worrying about a loss in specialist ability.

When another poster dares to do use the same logic in selecting Imran, suddenly he cares about a loss in specialist ability.

Bias doesn't come clearer than this.

 

[kyear2]

The issue with him is always Imran. The rest he is okay with. He pretends to put Imran at no.8/9 or so among bowlers, but secretly rates him in the 20s.

This has nothing to do with Imran, if you go back far enough, he was in my team.

To take it even a step further, if he was what you see him to be, he would make the team, at least my team, absolutely perfect. You see him as a top 5 bowler and a test standard bat. If that's how I saw him he would be the 3rd name of the page. I don't think he's in the 20's but also see Steyn as being clearly better. That's it.

Believe it or not, the Miller thing and the keeper argument to a slightly lesser degree annoyed me more. Imran is way closer to Steyn than Miller is to Border and co.

Makes 0 sense to me

 

[Bolo.]

Lol come on man. These are numbers coming from nowhere because ATGs don't only face average players in their careers.

Most ATG bats struggle to match their career averages when you isolate their records against attacks ATG class bowlers.

It's quite simple. Hunting in a pack for bowlers tends to have much more benefits for average and SR.

Cricket is more difficult against stronger opponents. Not acknowledging this is one of the strangest hills to die on I've ever seen.

Who do do think will strike faster: an ATG bowler who is bowling with (and against) a team of 3 year olds, or an ATG bowling with (and against) a team of ATGs?

 

[kyear2]

The ultimate battle (no 7349 this week):

We have our own:
Imran hater (somehow doesn't likes extra runs or good 5th bowlers, but head over heels for slip catchers (only slip though))

VS

Kallis hater (somehow thinks Kallis was very slow, but doesn't really have a problem with other slower batsmen).

They both come with unwarranted or unjustifiable (Miller) drawbacks.

And tell me the slip fielders that I force into the team?

 

[kyear2]

Yeah but what if in his calculation a 5th bowler is more important?


A Hadlee McGrath swap similar to a Kallis Ponting swap for you.


It's all rather simple. He wants five class bowling options and doesn't see the differences between the ATG pacers like you.


Have you asked him his bowler rankings? Maybe it's not 8th or 28th like you.

Yes.

The funny thing is that you like to believe that I'm an Imran hater and for the rest of the forum he's an automatic choice, and that's never been the case. He and Viv are always the last and tightest inclusions into the team, well along with Warne last time. Infact they were the only three rightly disputed positions.

The fact that you still believe it's some hatred and not the fact that I just think the best attack is better and every poll, question and related conversation always comes back to Steyn was better and that's good enough for me, is on you.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Bradley Clyde

Wouldn't have been picked ahead of Ellery Hanley or Hugh McGahan.

Anyway, the best ever Australian lock was John Eales.

 

[subshakerz]

Cricket is more difficult against stronger opponents. Not acknowledging this is one of the strangest hills to die on I've ever seen.

Who do do think will strike faster: an ATG bowler who is bowling with (and against) a team of 3 year olds, or an ATG bowling with (and against) a team of ATGs?

Aside from SR, will averages be affected too?

Will average team scores be the same in an ATG scenario, more or less?