What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

[harsh.ag]

Curtly talks to no man to become folklore in 120 years' time.

 

[NUFAN]

Grace the cricketer was amazing and one of the best but Grace the Test Cricketer was not.

If you're picked as a batsman (which he surely was, since he averaged under half a wicket per Test match) and you can't score a century for a dozen years, you're not making my ATG team.

 

[NUFAN]

I mean WG Grace didn't score a Test century for 4676 consecutive days during his Test career. Chris Martin didn't even have as long a century drought as he went just 4431 days without one.

 

[the big bambino]

Grace had a test career between ages 32-51. Hardly a man's prime years - especially as a bowler. Apart from his advancing age the competence of his team's front line bowlers would have limited his chances at the bowling crease. Given the small number of tests back then I don't place much store in his so called century drought though his average ranks him down at no.13 for men who played more than 10 tests between his test playing years (1880 - 1899).

 

[NUFAN]

So if the team he was in had better bowlers than him which meant he hardly ever bowled and you don't really mind about his century drought, what is it about his Test career that appeals to you?

 

[Hurricane]

I mean WG Grace didn't score a Test century for 4676 consecutive days during his Test career. Chris Martin didn't even have as long a century drought as he went just 4431 days without one.

Grace had a test career between ages 32-51. Hardly a man's prime years - especially as a bowler. Apart from his advancing age the competence of his team's front line bowlers would have limited his chances at the bowling crease. Given the small number of tests back then I don't place much store in his so called century drought though his average ranks him down at no.13 for men who played more than 10 tests between his test playing years (1880 - 1899).

And if you restrict it to over 20 innings he came 9th
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Only two people got an average of over 40.

Even in his FC career he didn't average 40. He scored a fc century roughly every 10 innings just by eyeballing it, and if he had've done so in his test career he would have had 4 centuries instead of 2 centuries and you would be making the same point Nufan about a lack of centuries.

I am not PEWS but if we standardized his test batting average it would look healthier.

 

[harsh.ag]

I think a view might go like this: Test cricket isn't the pinnacle of the game just because it is test cricket. At that point of time, county was the great battleground. And during his prime in the 1870s, Grace dominated it like nobody else has ever done. Nothing left to prove, maybe, by the time test cricket came along, maybe his skills had declined, yada yada yada...

 

[NUFAN]

And if you restrict it to over 20 innings he came 9th
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Only two people got an average of over 40.

Even in his FC career he didn't average 40. He scored a fc century roughly every 10 innings just by eyeballing it, and if he had've done so in his test career he would have had 4 centuries instead of 2 centuries and you would be making the same point Nufan about a lack of centuries.

If he doubled his career century output he would have had a better career.

 

[NUFAN]

I think a view might go like this: Test cricket isn't the pinnacle of the game just because it is test cricket. At that point of time, county was the great battleground. And during his prime in the 1870s, Grace dominated it like nobody else has ever done. Nothing left to prove, maybe, by the time test cricket came along, maybe his skills had declined, yada yada yada...

Yeah agree so Grace is a great selection for an all time county cricket team or even an all time first class XI, but I base his Test credentials on his Test performances.

 

[Hurricane]

If he doubled his career century output he would have had a better career.

So putting words in your mouth you are saying that had he have averaged say 36 instead of 32 and scored 4 test centuries instead of 2 - you would not have raised your concern.

Does it really damage someone's reputation if they average 7 runs less in test match cricket than they do in FC? I guess it does a bit but significantly?

Still your point stands if you evaluate him only on tests you wouldn't pick him for an ATG team. You are correct.

 

[the big bambino]

So if the team he was in had better bowlers than him which meant he hardly ever bowled and you don't really mind about his century drought, what is it about his Test career that appeals to you?

His century drought is a non issue given the small amount of games played in his era. I mean Bradman had a massive century drought btwn 39-45. He played tests when he was way past his best yet his average compared with the best of his contemporaries. That's what I like about his test career. It gives you an idea of how good he must have been in his prime.

 

[fredfertang]

If you're going to pass judgment on WG I think its fairer to do so on the strength of his record for the Gents against the Players which, in his time, was the biggest game there was - he averaged 42 with the bat in that and 18 with the ball, even though he played till he was well past 50

 

[NUFAN]

So putting words in your mouth you are saying that had he have averaged say 36 instead of 32 and scored 4 test centuries instead of 2 - you would not have raised your concern.

Does it really damage someone's reputation if they average 7 runs less in test match cricket than they do in FC? I guess it does a bit but significantly?

Still your point stands if you evaluate him only on tests you wouldn't pick him for an ATG team. You are correct.

Yes. Doubling his century count and having more impact in Test matches by averaging more would have convinced me that Grace was a champion Test career. Averaging 7 less doesn't matter. Not doing as well as some of his peers does. I mean Shrewsbury was regarded as a fine batsman but you don't see his name get branded about as much as the champion county cricketer.

His century drought is a non issue given the small amount of games played in his era. I mean Bradman had a massive century drought btwn 39-45. He played tests when he was way past his best yet his average compared with the best of his contemporaries. That's what I like about his test career. It gives you an idea of how good he must have been in his prime.

Performances in First Class Cricket are not an exact indicator of Test performances. Grace may not have been able to translate his county cricket exploits into Test Cricket at the level that some might have expected

 

[NUFAN]

If you're going to pass judgment on WG I think its fairer to do so on the strength of his record for the Gents against the Players which, in his time, was the biggest game there was - he averaged 42 with the bat in that and 18 with the ball, even though he played till he was well past 50

That's sensational work. I'll be sure to include him next time we do a Gents ATG XI.

 

[fredfertang]

That's sensational work. I'll be sure to include him next time we do a Gents ATG XI.

Just trying to make the point that Test cricket wasn't regarded in the same way in Grace's time as it is now, so even leaving aside the possibility or otherwise of doing cross generational comparisons, comparing Grace's Test record with, say, Kallis', cos it aint like with like to start with

 

[NUFAN]

Just trying to make the point that Test cricket wasn't regarded in the same way in Grace's time as it is now, so even leaving aside the possibility or otherwise of doing cross generational comparisons, comparing Grace's Test record with, say, Kallis', cos it aint like with like to start with

Cheers fred, I appreciate this fact but I don't think its wise to include any match that does not have Test status when selecting an All Time World XI for tests.

Imagine this scenario...

In 80 years time, IPL is the Gents vs Players of the Grace league and Ten Dollar Carl III is the main man averaging 12 with the ball and 50 with the bat in a long career. He then tries his hand at the annual Test match and is good but standard. 38 batting average, 28 bowling average in his 12 match Test career. Will he make an ATG Test team or be up for discussion?

 

[fredfertang]

Playing conditions for Tests and Gents v Players in Victorian times were the same though, but I certainly agree that putting WG in an ATG Test XI is liking doing the same with Tranmere Rovers finest, Dixie Dean, in the soccer equivalent - nice idea but difficult to objectively justify

 

[kyear2]

When Wisden selected their ATG Team last year, it was cricket XI, not test XI. So it would have factored in Test, FC, ODI and possibly T20.

Under that criteria Grace should walk in to an ATG XI and Barry Richards wouldn't be that far behind either. Would also make Akram and Barnes possibly equally assured of their spots as well.

In fact the only disputable selection under that selection criteria from the actual team selected would be Knott over Gilchrist

 

[the big bambino]

Performances in First Class Cricket are not an exact indicator of Test performances. Grace may not have been able to translate his county cricket exploits into Test Cricket at the level that some might have expected

What? How else were players gauged on their worthiness for test cricket? Until Andrew Hilditch made T20 the benchmark I mean?

As for Grace he does have an enviable test record that is one of the best of his era when he was far from his peak himself. It is reasonable to interpret that performance into something special when he was at his best.

 

[NUFAN]

What? How else were players gauged on their worthiness for test cricket? Until Andrew Hilditch made T20 the benchmark I mean?

As for Grace he does have an enviable test record that is one of the best of his era when he was far from his peak himself. It is reasonable to interpret that performance into something special when he was at his best.

You said that Grace played Test Cricket well past his best, what I am saying is that even if he played Test Cricket at an earlier point of time during his career, he may not have been able to translate strong first class performances into strong Test performances so it doesn't actually give you a good indicator how good he must have been in his prime, when assessing him as a Test Cricketer.