What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

[TheJediBrah]

Is a bowler's average really affected that much by their support?

Evidently not. It's one of those hypotheses that sounds great when you look at the logic behind it but in practice is pretty clearly not the case, at least when talking about the very best

 

[TheJediBrah]

No.

Miller
170 wkts, 11 years, 95 innings,

Kapil

172 wickets from just 76 innings

After 96 innings - 238 wickets

After first 11 years - 329 wickets from 162 inninngs

Also, Miller bowled in better conditions with great support.
If he is an ATG test bowler, then Klusner is an ATG ODI batsman.

How do you find the energy to cherry pick so many random irrelevant stats?

Miller v Kapil is not even a comparison.
Miller was a much better batsman.
And a much, much better bowler

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Miller didn't bowl much in certain games due to resting/workload/injury concerns and other bowlers being proficent as well. Presumably in an actual AT side he would be fully fit.

No, he would be the same injured / tired Miller.. Because AT 11s are based on consistent greatness not just peaks.

 

[grecian]

Evidently not. It's one of those hypotheses that sounds great when you look at the logic behind it but in practice is pretty clearly not the case, at least when talking about the very best

It all depends really, I think if it's absolute dross, it probably doesn't help, but people seem to forget Murali had Vaas for much of his career, and he was probably one of the top-5 left-armers in the game, New Zealand, basically just were there to be a foil to Hadlee. Both of course because of their rightful pre-eminence for their countries got decent pitches to suit them pretty much too the ground, so they weren't to disadvantaged.

I will say it possibly help the averages, to have great bowlers around always fresh bats at the creasebut takes away the amount of wickets you pick up, normally when I put in Garner to these sides people mention his lack of fivefors, but it kinda wasn't his job, he picked up wickets and kept the economy rate tight so others could blast through them. Why I'd have him in a World xi, perfect foil for the others.

 

[Line and Length]

No.

Miller
170 wkts, 11 years, 95 innings,

Kapil

172 wickets from just 76 innings

After 96 innings - 238 wickets

After first 11 years - 329 wickets from 162 inninngs

Also, Miller bowled in better conditions with great support.
If he is an ATG test bowler, then Klusner is an ATG ODI batsman.

There's a flip side to your comment about "great support". The 'support' provided by Lindwall and Davidson meant there were fewer wickets for Miller to take. This makes your comparison based on wickets and games irrelevant.

Miller was a superb bowlers who only performed at his best when he needed to (or his team needed him). There are plenty of anecdotes that relate to Miller's laid back approach to the game.

 

[harsh.ag]

Bowling average is a highly overrated stat when used in isolation.

Take all the context into account since all of you are cricket nerds.

Bowling support, bowling workload, bowling conditions, the context of the kind of bowler you are and your role, the context of one's life, the context of the country one belongs to and the background support - everything matters.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

How do you find the energy to cherry pick so many random irrelevant stats?

Miller v Kapil is not even a comparison.
Miller was a much better batsman.
And a much, much better bowler

Kapil was an Anderson category bowler.. Not a True ATG..but close to it.
Miller's WPM is not even close to a " good bowler league " still he can be ranked as an ATVG because his Avg.

Just 1.75 wickets per innings is not an ATG category. NEVER.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

There's a flip side to your comment about "great support". The 'support' provided by Lindwall and Davidson meant there were fewer wickets for Miller to take. This makes your comparison based on wickets and games irrelevant.

Miller was a superb bowlers who only performed at his best when he needed to (or his team needed him). There are plenty of anecdotes that relate to Miller's laid back approach to the game.

Ok.That approach costed him the greatness.

 

[Gob]

You can excuse lack of support for certain great players not winning his team test matches against/in certain countries but its certainly not an excuse for their own poor performance (Steve Smith in his last two tours to India and England)

 

[Burgey]

Without going through old arguments, Murali's poorer record against Oz, is nothing compared to Warne's hideous record against the best players of spin at the time.

92 wickets more at 3 better, not really comparable IMHO.

Yeah but Murali stinking vs Aus doesn’t automatically mean Warne gets the nod.

 

[Burgey]

Bowling average is a highly overrated stat when used in isolation.

Take all the context into account since all of you are cricket nerds.

Bowling support, bowling workload, bowling conditions, the context of the kind of bowler you are and your role, the context of one's life, the context of the country one belongs to and the background support - everything matters.

This is axiomatic, as it is with batting average. But a disparity of seven-eight rpw across decade-long careers, especially when they’re essentially the same decade, is a pretty compelling stat.

then again, that’s a context in itself I guess

 

[Gob]

92 wickets more at 3 better, not really comparable IMHO.

Its very close when/if you disregard the minnows. Ofcourse you don't have to and you can argue Murali was performing against what was put in front of him

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

This is axiomatic, as it is with batting average. But a disparity of seven-eight rpw across decade-long careers, especially when they’re essentially the same decade, is a pretty compelling stat.

then again, that’s a context in itself I guess

Seven-eight can be adjusted to four-five after considering these factors

 

[h_hurricane]

Many who haven't watched Kapil bowl under-rate him. Laughable bowling support, extreme bowling workload, tiring bowling conditions and insane longevity are never considered. Ever since his knee injury in 1984, he wasn't the same bowler. He continued playing for india in every test match(probably stupidly) instead of taking frequent injury breaks, rejuvenating completely before joining back. Wrap him in cotton wool like Bumrah these days, one could argue that he would have given similar results.

That is not to say that he was in the same class as Imran or Hadlee as bowler. Some one like Hadlee didn't need as much support as Kapil because he was one of the greatest ever, and when you are at that level, you don't need much support anyways.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Many who haven't watched Kapil bowl under-rate him. Laughable bowling support, extreme bowling workload, tiring bowling conditions and insane longevity are never considered. Ever since his knee injury in 1984, he wasn't the same bowler. He continued playing for india in every test match(probably stupidly) instead of taking frequent injury breaks, rejuvenating completely before joining back. Wrap him in cotton wool like Bumrah these days, one could argue that he would have given similar results.

That is not to say that he was in the same class as Imran or Hadlee as bowler. Some one like Hadlee didn't need as much support as Kapil because he was one of the greatest ever, and when you are at that level, you don't need much support anyways.

ATVG
Anderson class

 

[TheJediBrah]

Its very close when/if you disregard the minnows. Ofcourse you don't have to and you can argue Murali was performing against what was put in front of him

Always find it weird that people ignore how much Murali played against Bang and Zim, and how his bullying of them influenced his stats

 

[TheJediBrah]

Kapil was an Anderson category bowler.. Not a True ATG..but close to it.
Miller's WPM is not even close to a " good bowler league " still he can be ranked as an ATVG because his Avg.

Just 1.75 wickets per innings is not an ATG category. NEVER.

Ignoring that this is a stupid metric to judge him on, and clearly you've chosen it because it's the only one that favours your guy, but even then it's barely a difference. Miller took 3 wkts a match and kapil took 3.3. Even the irrelevant cherry picked stat you chose barely supports your contention

 

[h_hurricane]

ATVG
Anderson class

Yes. Any bowler who was once the highest wicket taker in history(ignoring the early days of the game) is at a bare minimum ATVG. Being good for so long isn't an attribute associated with merely good ones.

 

[h_hurricane]

Ignoring that this is a stupid metric to judge him on, and clearly you've chosen it because it's the only one that favours your guy, but even then it's barely a difference. Miller took 3 wkts a match and kapil took 3.3. Even the irrelevant cherry picked stat you chose barely supports your contention

Miller only took 21 wickets more in his whole career than Kapil took in just 2 years (1979 and 1983) at roughly the same average. How highly would you rate Doug Walters or Asif Iqbal as bowlers if averages were the sole criteria.

I am not saying Kapil was a better bowler than Miller by the way. Just that raw averages don't tell the full story.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Miller only took 21 wickets more in his whole career than Kapil took in just 2 years (1979 and 1983) at roughly the same average. How highly would you rate Doug Walters or Asif Iqbal as bowlers if averages were the sole criteria.

I am not saying Kapil was a better bowler than Miller by the way. Just that raw averages don't tell the full story.

no one is saying that averages are the sole criteria

another important criteria: Miller and Imran would make my ATG team because just imagine the caliber and quantity of women they would attract to the team's functions. Kapil would just scare them away.