What are the 5 greatest bowling attacks ever fielded?

[subshakerz]

Yes, as evidenced from their stark home and away records and loads of reverse swing.

Dude, Imran has virtually the same number of quality away series as Marshall to dispel this idea he was just this reverse swing dependent flunky. His away record is almost the same as Steyn and you never bring it up in Steyns case. You are the only one who refuses to contextualise his bowling career.

No, you agreed there would be. I assume there would be a mix, normal cricket. Great attacks, but great batsmen as well. Need to stop with this we.

You agreed it would tend towards low scoring. You want me to bring your quotes?

I like how Marshall's and Warne's got cut in half and Imran's and Hadlee's are still up there. The fact is we don't know.

Cutting all their averages around 7-10 points.

But even the vote on the other thread still has McGrath ahead, dint know why you pretend like I'm the odd man out.

I know I voted for McGrath too. As long as my no.8 is strong I am willing to allow one bunny in the batting.

 

[Bolo.]

You give yourself too much credit, but at least not as stubborn as you, lol.

Watched closely all of Ambrose's career, and most of Steyn's. What you ignore is that Ambrose and Imran had very similar s/r's.

You have clearly only read my takes on Ambrose and Steyn, and ignored the other, and all were fair and well reasoned.

The point that the bat deep brigade refuses to acknowledge is that you're choosing 3 bowlers from the same bowler era. That's like choosing 3 batsmen from the 30's. Imran by comparison to his peers was poor away from home during that era, not even adding the astrix attached.
You have better bowlers from more difficult eras, one who performed better and equally well home and away.
And let's be honest, they're not allowed to prepare the ball for reverse like they used to, who says they will be as effective.

The two parts of this argument that is crazy though is that you are absolutely certain that these matches will be low scoring, and even more ridiculous, that in a low scoring series, you're convinced that those two will consistently score an additional 40 runs an innings, not match, innings. The ATG batsmen are struggling but the guy who averages 27 is going to score his average every game.

Please....

Don't think I've ever seen argue that the 80s was a tough era for bowlers. If era wasn't a factor, I'd say Hadlee and Marshall are clearly the best bowlers ever, and Imran is arguably the best 3rd pick for a team with them in it. This is without considering batting.

I pick them because they are simply the best players and a wonderful combination of skillsets. Era alone can't wipe out the huge advantages they bring.

Complaining about 3 players from the same era when you are picking 3 players from the same era and same team doesn't make much sense. The strength of the AUS top order would have helped all of these guys out. Quality catching makes both bowlers appear better than if they had played for just about any other team. Mcgrath and Warne gave an advantage by complementing each other in a way that no real ATGs enjoyed, but that everyone would (or not have) in an ATG XI.

FTR, I'm not actually against selecting players from the same team. If the players are good enough, so be it. The fact that we know Gilchrist could keep to Warne is the deciding fact in me selecting Warne over Murali. I'm just pointing out the contradiction.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The point that the bat deep brigade refuses to acknowledge is that you're choosing 3 bowlers from the same bowler era. That's like choosing 3 batsmen from the 30's.

Please elaborate on this

 

[kyear2]

Dude, Imran has virtually the same number of quality away series as Marshall to dispel this idea he was just this reverse swing dependent flunky. His away record is almost the same as Steyn and you never bring it up in Steyns case. You are the only one who refuses to contextualise his bowling career.


You agreed it would tend towards low scoring. You want me to bring your quotes?


Cutting all their averages around 7-10 points.


I know I voted for McGrath too. As long as my no.8 is strong I am willing to allow one bunny in the batting.

I swear you don't read my posts, or only respond to the ones you wish to.

Yesterday I clearly spelt out the pros and cons for each, you're just being disingenuous now. It was addressed to you, I'm sure you saw it.

You can bring what u like. None of us know what they will be. The closest we've had was WSC and the cream of the crop of the batsmen performed well. Was also fairly average scores.

That's not how maths work

Percentages, not flat numbers, dear God.

 

[subshakerz]

You can bring what u like. None of us know what they will be. The closest we've had was WSC and the cream of the crop of the batsmen performed well. Was also fairly average scores.

P.S. Perhaps you should check how Imran did as a bowler in WSC since you brought it up lol. Of course you won't give him credit for this while continuing to bash him for 'failing in Australia'

And as a bat, Imran did play the WI and averaged 27 which is a good indication. I expect around the same against an ATG XI.

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[kyear2]

Don't think I've ever seen argue that the 80s was a tough era for bowlers. If era wasn't a factor, I'd say Hadlee and Marshall are clearly the best bowlers ever, and Imran is arguably the best 3rd pick for a team with them in it. This is without considering batting.

I pick them because they are simply the best players and a wonderful combination of skillsets. Era alone can't wipe out the huge advantages they bring.

Complaining about 3 players from the same era when you are picking 3 players from the same era and same team doesn't make much sense. The strength of the AUS top order would have helped all of these guys out. Quality catching makes both bowlers appear better than if they had played for just about any other team. Mcgrath and Warne gave an advantage by complementing each other in a way that no real ATGs enjoyed, but that everyone would (or not have) in an ATG XI.

FTR, I'm not actually against selecting players from the same team. If the players are good enough, so be it. The fact that we know Gilchrist could keep to Warne is the deciding fact in me selecting Warne over Murali. I'm just pointing out the contradiction.

The 80's were a very good era for bowlers, the same way the 30's were for batsmen.

I wouldn't chose 3 batsmen from the 30's when there are batsmen from the 70's IVA, and '90's Tendulkar, who were just as good in tougher eras. I'll take the best from each era.
Why take the 3rd best bowler from a helpful era, when McGrath was better, even in a less helpful one.

The comparison to the Aussie trio is vastly different. Warne and McGrath not only complemented each other perfectly and had an unparalleled partnership, they again dominated in a batting era. Gilchrist being able to keep to Warne solidifies both their places. And shouldn't the very best teams have the most players represented?

Yes, McGrath and Warne had brilliant catching support, but so did Marshall, Hadlee, Murali, Ambrose, Steyn... But they will also have in good ATG teams as well.
Sure we don't want to get into advantages that Imran had.

But glad to see you acknowledge the highlighted bit.

But also let me say this, I don't have an issue if you, like Benaud want to highlight batting at 8 (within reason), not my preference per say, but fine. But to select all 3 of your bowlers based on batting is crazy, when you have a guy that's of McGrath's quality.

Again, have never seen any AT XI with a combination of bowlers chosen on batting, and I've seen, and listed quite a few.

 

[subshakerz]

But also let me say this, I don't have an issue if you, like Benaud want to highlight batting at 8 (within reason), not my preference per say, but fine. But to select all 3 of your bowlers based on batting is crazy, when you have a guy that's of McGrath's quality.

Let's rephrase: He will select ATGs bowlers that have batting ability. Why is that crazy?

Again, have never seen any AT XI with a combination of bowlers chosen on batting, and I've seen, and listed quite a few.

How many AT XIs outside CW have McGrath or Hadlee? Does that mean we don't include them?

 

[OverratedSanity]

But to select all 3 of your bowlers based on batting is crazy, when you have a guy that's of McGrath's quality.

People who select Imran and Hadlee do so because they feel they're first and foremost comparable, at worst very marginally worse bowlers than Mcgrath. The batting is the decider after already factoring in bowling quality.

You already know this BTW.

 

[subshakerz]

People who select Imran and Hadlee do so because they feel they're first and foremost comparable, at worst very marginally worse bowlers than Mcgrath. The batting is the decider after already factoring in bowling quality.

You already know this BTW.

He calls it crazy because he is pissed as he knows it is a valid reason to remove McGrath (his lock) outside of the side.

He doesn't mind this same logic being used to play Warne instead of Murali since he already prefers Warne.

 

[kyear2]

P.S. Perhaps you should check how Imran did as a bowler in WSC since you brought it up lol. Of course you won't give him credit for this while continuing to bash him for 'failing in Australia'

And as a bat, Imran did play the WI and averaged 27 which is a good indication. I expect around the same against an ATG XI.

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World Series Cricket Supertests trophy bowling best career bowling average, cricket records by trophy only on ESPNcricinfo.Check stats and records of World Series Cricket Supertests trophy bowling best career bowling average

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Dude he averaged 28 in Australia, there's no need for the air quotes. In an ATG context he failed in Australia, as he did India.

Yes he averaged 20 as a bowler and 21 as a batsman in 5 WSC matches.

You say the Caribbean was his best performances and against a great team. He averaged 25 with the ball and 21 with the bat.

 

[Bolo.]

The 80's were a very good era for bowlers, the same way the 30's were for batsmen.

I wouldn't chose 3 batsmen from the 30's when there are batsmen from the 70's IVA, and '90's Tendulkar, who were just as good in tougher eras. I'll take the best from each era.
Why take the 3rd best bowler from a helpful era, when McGrath was better, even in a less helpful one.

The comparison to the Aussie trio is vastly different. Warne and McGrath not only complemented each other perfectly and had an unparalleled partnership, they again dominated in a batting era. Gilchrist being able to keep to Warne solidifies both their places. And shouldn't the very best teams have the most players represented?

Yes, McGrath and Warne had brilliant catching support, but so did Marshall, Hadlee, Murali, Ambrose, Steyn... But they will also have in good ATG teams as well.
Sure we don't want to get into advantages that Imran had.

But glad to see you acknowledge the highlighted bit.

But also let me say this, I don't have an issue if you, like Benaud want to highlight batting at 8 (within reason), not my preference per say, but fine. But to select all 3 of your bowlers based on batting is crazy, when you have a guy that's of McGrath's quality.

Again, have never seen any AT XI with a combination of bowlers chosen on batting, and I've seen, and listed quite a few.

You realise that this entire post is just a rephrasing of what I said?

Nothing in here addresses fact that that all of us already adjust for the advantages that my three bowlers had. And you are handwaving away the advantages the Aussies had simply by playing for the same team. If picking 3 from an era is an issue, picking 3 from the same team should be too.

 

[kyear2]

People who select Imran and Hadlee do so because they feel they're first and foremost comparable, at worst very marginally worse bowlers than Mcgrath. The batting is the decider after already factoring in bowling quality.

You already know this BTW.

Do you think Imran was only marginally worse than McGrath?

A bowler who averaged 25, 28 & 28 away from home is a bowlers era vs the 3 good teams of his time?

Do you think that McGrath, having bowled in the flat pitch era with no drop off in quality and still had better number than Imran, isn't of some value to an ATG team?

That McGrath would perfectly compliment Marshall and had a legendary partnership with Warne isn't of some value?

Can the team with this batting not afford to have a no. 11 batsman who may actually be the 2nd best guy ever?

The guy that propelled Australia to one of the best two teams ever?

No value in any of that?

 

[subshakerz]

Dude he averaged 28 in Australia, there's no need for the air quotes. In an ATG context he failed in Australia, as he did India.

Um, no. He only averages 28 because of his final series when he played primarily as a bat. As a prime bowler, he took 41 wickets in 8 tests @27. Once you add in the WSC, his record as a prime bowler looks like 66 wickets in 13 tests @24, comfortably ATG.

You say the Caribbean was his best performances and against a great team. He averaged 25 with the ball and 21 with the bat.

Why exclude his performance against them in Pakistan? Oh wait because it doesn't suit your argument? He only played the really high end quartet attacks in Pakistan.

 

[kyear2]

You realise that this entire post is just a rephrasing of what I said?

Nothing in here addresses fact that that all of us already adjust for the advantages that my three bowlers had. And you are handwaving away the advantages the Aussies had simply by playing for the same team. If picking 3 from an era is an issue, picking 3 from the same team should be too.

Three bowlers from a bowling era, where one wasn't that great away from home, vs two bowlers in a batting era where they dominated and became one of best teams ever.

You don't see the difference?

 

[subshakerz]

Do you think Imran was only marginally worse than McGrath?

A bowler who averaged 25, 28 & 28 away from home is a bowlers era vs the 3 good teams of his time?

Maybe cas McGrath averaged 29 and 31 in SL and Pak, and 27 overall against the best batting lineup he faced?

Of course Imran's averages need context which you won't provide since he started as a teenager and ended as a batsmen.

That McGrath would perfectly compliment Marshall and had a legendary partnership with Warne isn't of some value?

Can the team with this batting not afford to have a no. 11 batsman who may actually be the 2nd best guy ever?

The guy that propelled Australia to one of the best two teams ever?

No value in any of that?

You're the one suggesting not including McGrath is crazy.

 

[Bolo.]

Three bowlers from a bowling era, where one wasn't that great away from home, vs two bowlers in a batting era where they dominated and became one of best teams ever.

You don't see the difference?

Nothing in here addresses fact that that all of us already adjust for the advantages that my three bowlers had. And you are handwaving away the advantages the Aussies had simply by playing for the same team. If picking 3 from an era is an issue, picking 3 from the same team should be too.

 

[subshakerz]

Three bowlers from a bowling era, where one wasn't that great away from home, vs two bowlers in a batting era where they dominated and became one of best teams ever.

You don't see the difference?

If you are using the bowling era point, then that should exclude Marshall, Hadlee and Imran from consideration altogether. Of course it's more of a preference point that you are trying to make as some sort of cricket logic.

 

[subshakerz]

If picking 3 from an era is an issue, picking 3 from the same team should be too.

Good point. Of course he doesn't mind bending his own logic as long as he gets his favorites in.

 

[Xix2565]

Guys, so what are the 5 greatest bowling attacks ever fielded?

 

[subshakerz]

Would the current Indian attacks or Pakistan mid 90s attack (Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Saqlain) be better?