West Indies vs South Africa - The greatest battle than was never played

[wpdavid]

lol yea g, i wasn't aware of this so called gleenagles agreement that was in place after 1970 that wpdavid spoke of.

OK, having looked it up, the Gleneagles Agreement came into place in 1977.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleneagles_Agreement

That being said, WI (and the Asian sides) wouldn't have played SA for some years before then. In the early 1970's even some of the predominantly white countries had to cancel tours of/by SA due to mass protests due to widesread disgust at apartheid (and the SA's 'disgust' at having to play against maories in the NZ sides). afaics the matter really came to the fore in the early 1960's when SA left the Commonwealth, and it seems unlikely that the nonwhite countries would have played SA at any point from then.

But as Richard & I said earlier, SA weren't interested in playing against non-whites for decades, even before the crucial 1948 election. There's a quote by either Constantine or Headley commening on how they couldn't cope with the prospect of a black man scoring a hundred against them. Then there's England's cricket selectors shamefully giving in to the SA authorities' request to drop Duleep after he played in the first test in 1929. Prior to that, Ranji's omission from a tour of SA around the turn of the 19th/20th century is seen by many out of deferrence to the hosts racial sensibilities, although I suppose there won't be too many stray emails about that one.

 

[wpdavid]

I see i wasn't aware of that. But it would have been interesting if they weren't banned, they may have dominated & West Indies would have dominated as well especially in the mid to late 70's when the windies won those two world cups.

I suppose SA wouldn't have entered the WC if it had been introduced 10 years previously, or if they hadn't been banned by 1975. Beyond that, SA would probably have dominated all the white sides except mid70's Aus. Quite what they'd have made of England's sides from the early 80's when black players started appearing is another matter though.

 

[wpdavid]

1976 was the time West Indies became the side.

One can only imagine what would have happened had Packer not interfered, and had Holding not suffered the injury he suffered in 1977.

As it was, West Indies' most famous trait - the pace quartet - didn't form until 1979, and nor did a batting-side without weak-links (the above one has just the one, Collis King - Lawrence Rowe returned post-WSC).

Without Packer, WI would probably have been crowned number 1 test side after their home series against Aus in (I think) 1978 as, IIRC Croft & Garner had emerged by then. Of course, no such judgement was possible when Aus sent their 2nd XI. As it was, we had to wait until 1979/80.

Going back to WI becoming "the side" in 1976, that isn't quite how it felt at the time. Obviously they looked seriously good by the end of the year, especially with the emergence of Holding as a world class performer, but we all knew they had been utterly marmalised by Aus at the start of it. You couldn't really argue against Aus being the number 1 side immediately before Packer.

 

[Richard]

Interesting, had never really thought about the matter TBH.

The way I guess I'd always considered it was that so many West Indian players came-on leaps-and-bounds between '75\76 and '77. Holding came out of that nightmare debut series to become rather phenominal later in the year; Garner and Croft emerged to replace him and Daniel when they got injured; and as I said elsewhere, that more than anything probably made the key difference.

The batting had been in place (though it was regularly disrupted) for years, with Fredericks, Greenidge, Rowe, Kallicherran, Richards, Lloyd and Murray.

 

[neville cardus]

Could cheat a bit a put Allan Lamb into that South Africa XI

Hardly cheating. Lamb would never have left were it not for isolation.

 

[wpdavid]

Hardly cheating. Lamb would never have left were it not for isolation.

Talking of which, wouldn't the same be true of Tony Greig? If so, he could probably feature in the 1976 lineup that was posted previously.

 

[neville cardus]

Talking of which, wouldn't the same be true of Tony Greig?

Yep.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

It's debatable whether Tony Greig would have got in the side. Rice and Procter were comparable allrounders and there were other batsman like Ken McEwan (Essex) and Brian Davidson (Leicestershire) who might have got in as a batsman ahead of Greig as well as Allan Lamb.

 

[Shaggy Alfresco]

I must say, looking at the South African cricketers of the 70's and 80's, they could have had a team better than the West Indies. When Test Captains of England are missing out on selection, it is an awesome XI.

 

[wpdavid]

It's debatable whether Tony Greig would have got in the side. Rice and Procter were comparable allrounders and there were other batsman like Ken McEwan (Essex) and Brian Davidson (Leicestershire) who might have got in as a batsman ahead of Greig as well as Allan Lamb.

Lamb would have been to young in the early-mid 1970's wouldn't he? But agreed about Rice. And good to see McEwan get a mention too.

 

[wpdavid]

I must say, looking at the South African cricketers of the 70's and 80's, they could have had a team better than the West Indies. When Test Captains of England are missing out on selection, it is an awesome XI.

They certainly would have been very good, but don't forget that the players being listed span a couple of decades.
But going back to Greig, the thought that he may not even have been picked for SA is a bit of a shock to those of us who followed England in the early & mid 1970's. It isn't just that he captained us, he was easily one of our best 2 or 3 players. However, there's no arguing that SA had alternatives who may well have been better.

 

[aussie]

It's debatable whether Tony Greig would have got in the side. Rice and Procter were comparable allrounders and there were other batsman like Ken McEwan (Essex) and Brian Davidson (Leicestershire) who might have got in as a batsman ahead of Greig as well as Allan Lamb.

Never heard if him TBH, nor did i find any such player on cricinfo.

 

[grecian]

Never heard if him TBH, nor did i find any such player on cricinfo.

I think you take out the second D, Davison.

Still slightly confusing, as he's a Zim

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I think you take out the second D, Davison.

Still slightly confusing, as he's a Zim

Oops sorry about the extra D

In his day a "Zim" was a Rhodesian and he would have played for South Africa as people like Colin Bland did.

 

[grecian]

Oops sorry about the extra D

In his day a "Zim" was a Rhodesian and he would have played for South Africa as people like Colin Bland did.

I did say slightly, as I kind of knew what you meant.

Btw, you were right about the Clive Lloyd interview, he did say South Africa. I listened back to it on Talksport.

 

[aussie]

Oops sorry about the extra D

In his day a "Zim" was a Rhodesian and he would have played for South Africa as people like Colin Bland did.

Seen, but how good was he though. Never really heard his name mentioned when talk about great South Afrcan players who had their career cut short betwen 70 to 91 though?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Seen, but how good was he though. Never really heard his name mentioned when talk about great South Afrcan players who had their career cut short betwen 70 to 91 though?

He wasn't a great like Richards etc who it's assumed would have had a long distinguished Test career. He might or might not have been given a chance and might or might not have flourished, he was just an example of another batsman Greig might have had to compete with for a place if you accept that Proctor and Rice were the better allrounders. Greig had a very poor first class record as a batsman and might not have made the South African side.

 

[aussie]

i see thanks for that mam, i believe?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

i see thanks for that mam, i believe?

If by "mam" you "believe" I'm female then you believe wrong.

The name Lillian Thomson is just a play on the names Lillee and Thomson.

 

[aussie]

ha, sry there yo was just checking since i know a girl with that name.