Wasim Akram Vs Kallis

[BazBall21]

Akram is definitely higher up a greatest bowlers list than Kallis is a greatest batsmen list but that's skewed by there being more batsmen in a team

 

[kyear2]

So Kallis beats Steyn, who was a better bowler than Wasim, but loosing to Wasim because he was an era defining bowler?

Steyn was a more era defining bowler than Wasim was. Steyn was the only great bowler of his era.

 

[BazBall21]

Does Akram's batting sneak him above the likes of Steyn and Ambrose? I can see both arguments. A good no8 is useful. Both the supporting type and the explosive type.

 

[BazBall21]

Lindwall was a good 8 too. I know it was against a tiring attack but scoring a Test hundred at faster than a run a ball in the 1940s is still epic. That as the best bowler of the time too.

 

[Bolo.]

Akram is definitely higher up a greatest bowlers list than Kallis is a greatest batsmen list but that's skewed by there being more batsmen in a team

They would be about equal in terms of players above them from history with more bats than bowlers (by looking at CW rankings).

Almost all the higher ranked bowlers played in Wasim's time and the bats are dispersed through history though.

 

[capt_Luffy]

They would be about equal in terms of players above them from history with more bats than bowlers (by looking at CW rankings).

Almost all the higher ranked bowlers played in Wasim's time and the bats are dispersed through history though.

Are you saying you rate Kallis the bat higher than Akram the bowler???

 

[capt_Luffy]

Does Akram's batting sneak him above the likes of Steyn and Ambrose? I can see both arguments. A good no8 is useful. Both the supporting type and the explosive type.

I would say as overall players I would rate Akram and Steyn around equal, extremely marginally ahead of Ambrose.

 

[BazBall21]

I would say as overall players I would rate Akram and Steyn around equal, extremely marginally ahead of Ambrose.

What about Lindwall

 

[Bolo.]

Are you saying you rate Kallis the bat higher than Akram the bowler???

Nope, not saying that. I don't know, and am not fighting it either way. If forced, I'd pick Akram actually, but I suspect that is just due to defaulting to the 'bowlers are more valuable than bats' trope, rather than Akram actually being better.

I'm just responding to a comment about Akram being exceptional for his era. So many bowlers from his era are ahead.

 

[kyear2]

Akram is definitely higher up a greatest bowlers list than Kallis is a greatest batsmen list but that's skewed by there being more batsmen in a team

Typed this in another thread, but it's probably more applicable here.

But for the sake of argument where does Wasim's record excellent over Kallis's?

Even looking at peer review, for a healthy part of Wasim's career, Sir Curtly was ahead of him, and at the end McGrath.

And regarding bowler ratings and Wasim being top 10, I have
Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose, Warne, Murali, Lillee over him and it's close between him and Donald and more often than not I have Donald ahead.

With Kallis, I have over him.
Bradman, Tendulkar, Sobers, Richards, Hobbs, Lara, Smith, Hutton, Richards*, Gavaskar, Chappell, Hammond, Ponting, that's it, then it's him and Border.

Then we had an entire conversation just a day aho where Wasim wasn't even considered all rounder level, while Kallis is universally seen as one of the top 3 all rounders ever. There no universe where Wasim is a better batsman than Kallis was a bowler.

Then we have a top 10 ever slip fielder who was indispensable to his team and instrumental to his pacers success at home and away.

Not to mention that Kallis just handily beat Steyn who is a objectively better bowler than Wasim.

Where's the consistency?

 

[subshakerz]

Typed this in another thread, but it's probably more applicable here.

But for the sake of argument where does Wasim's record excellent over Kallis's?

Difficult to compare bat and bowlers records that way but I will say that Kallis as we know had the advantage of a significantly easier era to bat much if his career. He played in an era where every Tom, Dick and Harry was averaging over 50. Unlike Wasim, Kallis wasn't a high impact match player. The fact that he has two doubletons in an entire long career is an indictment.

And of course you already agreed that Wasims figures took a major hit from lack of good slip catchers.

Even looking at peer review, for a healthy part of Wasim's career, Sir Curtly was ahead of him, and at the end McGrath.

Maybe Ambrose was ahead in his peak, but overall, Wasim as far as overall post career peer review goes is ahead of Ambrose and even McGrath, and rivals Lillee and Marshall from the pacers.

And regarding bowler ratings and Wasim being top 10, I have
Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose, Warne, Murali, Lillee over him and it's close between him and Donald and more often than not I have Donald ahead.

With Kallis, I have over him.
Bradman, Tendulkar, Sobers, Richards, Hobbs, Lara, Smith, Hutton, Richards*, Gavaskar, Chappell, Hammond, Ponting, that's it, then it's him and Border.

This depends on each poster. I have Wasim in the top 10 but I would add to your list Sutcliffe, Headley, Pollock, Border, Waugh and Sanga who I have over the overrated Kallis.

What is interesting though is that you yourself put Wasim in your ATG XI, citing the fact that many pundits have done so s well, whereas there is no chance any of us would put Kallis in our first ATG XI since his overall package isn't good enough.

Then we had an entire conversation just a day aho where Wasim wasn't even considered all rounder level, while Kallis is universally seen as one of the top 3 all rounders ever. There no universe where Wasim is a better batsman than Kallis was a bowler.

Simple. You are overstating the value of secondary skills. The fact that Wasim was a near Hadlee level bat takes away much of Kallis' AR argument and puts more focus on Wasims advantage in primary skills. Our default should be to go with the notably better primary skills player unless it's overwhelmingly in favor of the AR based on secondary skills, which it's not in this case.

Then we have a top 10 ever slip fielder who was indispensable to his team and instrumental to his pacers success at home and away.

Most of us consider slips a tertiary skill like captaincy. Perhaps you should try converting slip catches into runs again.

Not to mention that Kallis just handily beat Steyn who is a objectively better bowler than Wasim.

Where's the consistency?

You're right, Kallis should lose to both on the same principle.

 

[capt_Luffy]

What about Lindwall

I rate Lindwall quite highly, but behind them. As overall cricketers, I will go:

Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
McGrath
Akram
Steyn
Ambrose

Donald
Lindwall
Pollock
Davidson
Lillee
Garner
Holding
Trueman
Younis
Cummins

Walsh
Roberts
Anderson
Bumrah
Rabada
Bedser

 

[subshakerz]

If you are trying to turn it into a peer based comparison, I feel like Wasim doesn't fare that well. He's clearly behind a number of 80s and 90s bowlers. Not as many bats are clearly ahead of Kallis, and there are more bats than bowlers, and more teams playing.

Wasim was definitely rated by peers far higher.

 

[Coronis]

What is interesting though is that you yourself put Wasim in your ATG XI, citing the fact that many pundits have done so s well, whereas there is no chance any of us would put Kallis in our first ATG XI since his overall package isn't good enough.

Addressing this one point - the reason Wasim is selected so much in ATG XI’s is because of the left arm variety, not necessarily the pure quality he brings to the attack.

In Kallis’ case, he’s unfortunate that Sobers exists really. He’s basically* the same player, but superior in each discipline.

Wasim is lucky to make it into ATG XIs as more of a unicorn. There’s only one other left armer that approaches/equals his quality and Wasim has a huge amount of longevity and is much more recent and present in people’s minds compared to him.

imo, Kallis would be a shoe in for most ATG XIs if Sobers wasn’t an option, certainly for me. If hypothetically, Marshall/Hadlee was a left armer would anyone be picking Wasim?

In any case, I generally don’t like bowler vs bat comparisons.

 

[Bolo.]

Wasim was definitely rated by peers far higher.

And? Even you are arguing that more players from Wasim's era are ahead of him, and you aren't exactly the most neutral poster when it comes to Kallis.

 

[BazBall21]

Addressing this one point - the reason Wasim is selected so much in ATG XI’s is because of the left arm variety, not necessarily the pure quality he brings to the attack.

In Kallis’ case, he’s unfortunate that Sobers exists really. He’s basically* the same player, but superior in each discipline.

Wasim is lucky to make it into ATG XIs as more of a unicorn. There’s only one other left armer that approaches/equals his quality and Wasim has a huge amount of longevity and is much more recent and present in people’s minds compared to him.

imo, Kallis would be a shoe in for most ATG XIs if Sobers wasn’t an option, certainly for me. If hypothetically, Marshall/Hadlee was a left armer would anyone be picking Wasim?

In any case, I generally don’t like bowler vs bat comparisons.

And players with secondary skillsets are even harder to compare to specialists. Like Kallis v Steyn.

 

[subshakerz]

And? Even you are arguing that more players from Wasim's era are ahead of him, and you aren't exactly the most neutral poster when it comes to Kallis.

I think that was the point of the post you replied to.

 

[sayon basak]

Addressing this one point - the reason Wasim is selected so much in ATG XI’s is because of the left arm variety, not necessarily the pure quality he brings to the attack.

In Kallis’ case, he’s unfortunate that Sobers exists really. He’s basically* the exact same player, but superior in each discipline.

Wasim is lucky to make it into ATG XIs as more of a unicorn. There’s only one other left armer that approaches/equals his quality and Wasim has a huge amount of longevity and is much more recent and present in people’s minds compared to him.

imo, Kallis would be a shoe in for most ATG XIs if Sobers wasn’t an option, certainly for me.

In any case, I generally don’t like bowler vs bat comparisons.

Akram would most probably make it into the 2nd ATG XI comfortably. Same with Kallis ig.

 

[sayon basak]

I rate Lindwall quite highly, but behind them. As overall cricketers, I will go:

Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
McGrath
Akram
Steyn
Ambrose

Donald
Lindwall
Pollock
Davidson
Lillee
Garner
Holding
Trueman
Younis
Cummins

Walsh
Roberts
Anderson
Bumrah
Rabada
Bedser

Garner should be at the top for his batting.

 

[subshakerz]

Addressing this one point - the reason Wasim is selected so much in ATG XI’s is because of the left arm variety, not necessarily the pure quality he brings to the attack.

In Kallis’ case, he’s unfortunate that Sobers exists really. He’s basically* the same player, but superior in each discipline.

Wasim is lucky to make it into ATG XIs as more of a unicorn. There’s only one other left armer that approaches/equals his quality and Wasim has a huge amount of longevity and is much more recent and present in people’s minds compared to him.

imo, Kallis would be a shoe in for most ATG XIs if Sobers wasn’t an option, certainly for me. If hypothetically, Marshall/Hadlee was a left armer would anyone be picking Wasim?

In any case, I generally don’t like bowler vs bat comparisons.

I am not sure if Kyear put him in his ATG XI for the left arm thing.

But I also think it's unfair to just make it a left arm fetish, and not acknowledge that Wasim is also seen for his quality and high reputation, and that Wasim has a lot more competition for that no.8 spot including Hadlee and Imran. It certainly means something that he features in so many ATG XIs.

As for Kallis, I think if Sobers wasn't there a lot of us on CW would have opted for Hammond instead since his batting seems less of an ill fit in an ATG middle order. Or you might have seen more ATGs with Miller too at no 6. Kallis isn't a shoe-in.