Wasim Akram vs Dennis Lillee

[subshakerz]

Nah, this is flawed logic. Just because the tail can sometimes make a few runs doesn't make lower-order wickets as valuable as wickets of proper batsman. Dismissing the tail is a valuable skill, but if it comes with a reduced ability to take top-order wickets (eg. Starc) then it's not even close to worth it.

What if, in Wasims case, it's didn't reflect lesser ability to take top order wickets but enhanced ability to take lower order ones. How would we tell the difference?

 

[TheJediBrah]

What if, in Wasims case, it's didn't reflect lesser ability to take top order wickets but enhanced ability to take lower order ones. How would we tell the difference?

Pretty easily. He would average a lot less overall if the latter were the case. If he were equally as good as Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee at taking top order wickets but better at tail enders he'd average like 16, not 24

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Pretty easily. He would average a lot less overall if the latter were the case. If he were equally as good as Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee at taking top order wickets but better at tail enders he'd average like 16, not 24

Hadlee is on another league in taking Top order and Tail end(Or Whatever wickets available ) compared to Marshall and Mcgrath.. Why he is averaging 20+ not 16?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Top order
Marshall 33%
Zaheer 45%

Tail
Marshall 26%
Zaheer 20%

Where would Zaheer rank among ATGs after the average adjustment?

 

[subshakerz]

Pretty easily. He would average a lot less overall if the latter were the case. If he were equally as good as Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee at taking top order wickets but better at tail enders he'd average like 16, not 24

Wouldnt you need to know the average per batting order segment to determine this?

 

[Slifer]

Top order
Marshall 33%
Zaheer 45%

Tail
Marshall 26%
Zaheer 20%

Where would Zaheer rank among ATGs after the average adjustment?

You very well know it's not just about the percentage of batting position wickets. Oops my bad, I took the bait. Nevermind...

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Among all the elite ATG bowlers (Hadlee aside) Akram had the biggest challenges to overcome. Controversies, below par fielders, bowling from the junk end, burden of captaincy, extra long career, undisciplined team ( if we can call so ), unfavorable conditions... Nothing stopped him form being the best bowler in the world though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Top order
Marshall 33%
Zaheer 45%

Tail
Marshall 26%
Zaheer 20%

Where would Zaheer rank among ATGs after the average adjustment?

I guess but you'd have to adjust his average so much he'd be a completely different player. I still don't think you're getting it

 

[TheJediBrah]

Wouldnt you need to know the average per batting order segment to determine this?

not really. You can make a pretty definitive judgement without it.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

You very well know it's not just about the percentage of batting position wickets. Oops my bad, I took the bait. Nevermind...

Its no longer a bait.. Its a counter evidence .

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I guess but you'd have to adjust his average so much he'd be a completely different player. I still don't think you're getting it

Can you do the maths for me? I want to know Zaheer's adjusted avg ( like, if he was taking 35% top order and 25% tail end.. Etc )

 

[nightprowler10]

Among all the elite ATG bowlers (Hadlee aside) Akram had the biggest challenges to overcome. Controversies, below par fielders, bowling from the junk end, burden of captaincy, extra long career, undisciplined team ( if we can call so ), unfavorable conditions..

Played with diabetes as well. Diagnosed in 1997 at the age of 29, and then played the last 6 years of his career. Cbf finding a source right now but I recall reading that he struggled with loss of vision and strength in his right leg.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Can you do the maths for me? I want to know Zaheer's adjusted avg ( like, if he was taking 35% top order and 25% tail end.. Etc )

No, this doesn't make any sense

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Played with diabetes as well. Diagnosed in 1997 at the age of 29, and then played the last 6 years of his career. Cbf finding a source right now but I recall reading that he struggled with loss of vision and strength in his right leg.

Yeah.. But thats not an external factor.. I wont consider it when comparing to other greats. Playing international cricket as a pace bowler with diabetes is an amazing effort though.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

No, this doesn't make any sense

Finally

:tears of happiness

 

[TheJediBrah]

you're either a master troll or genuinely deficient

Still can't figure it out

 

[subshakerz]

Among all the elite ATG bowlers (Hadlee aside) Akram had the biggest challenges to overcome. Controversies, below par fielders, bowling from the junk end, burden of captaincy, extra long career, undisciplined team ( if we can call so ), unfavorable conditions... Nothing stopped him form being the best bowler in the world though.

You can add diabetes...

Imran had all the above challenges plus a 2-year shin injury to recover from.

Like most ATG pace bowlers, Akram had three phases to his career: early development (85-89), peak (90-97) and then late career dip (98-2002). During his peak, he, along with Ambrose, was generally considered the best bowler in the world. The problem is that his early development and late career were unusually longer for an ATG bowler, counting for more than half of his career.

For example, McGrath, and Hadlee basically had a very minor dip towards the end. Ambrose and Marshall had slightly long dips but still averaged well despite taking less wickets. Imran like Wasim also had long early and late career phases, but his peak was much better than virtually any bowler. Lillee was almost equally prolific in pretty much every stage of his career. Steyn had a very short early career phase and went very quickly into his long peak.

 

[Line and Length]

Little or no mention has been made of the fact that Lillee, apart from his injuries, missed a significant chunk of his career playing World Series. I have posted a thread on player stats from those "Super Tests" and it should be noted that Lillee was bowling to such luminaries as Barry and Viv Richards, Greenidge, Lloyd and Fredericks.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

You can add diabetes...

Imran had all the above challenges plus a 2-year shin injury to recover from.

Like most ATG pace bowlers, Akram had three phases to his career: early development (85-89), peak (90-97) and then late career dip (98-2002). During his peak, he, along with Ambrose, was generally considered the best bowler in the world. The problem is that his early development and late career were unusually longer for an ATG bowler, counting for more than half of his career.

For example, McGrath, and Hadlee basically had a very minor dip towards the end. Ambrose and Marshall had slightly long dips but still averaged well despite taking less wickets. Imran like Wasim also had long early and late career phases, but his peak was much better than virtually any bowler. Lillee was almost equally prolific in pretty much every stage of his career. Steyn had a very short early career phase and went very quickly into his long peak.

Imran generally bowled with wind.. I think.
Also the team was not that big mess in his time.

 

[Migara]

Top order Average 37.01 (1.225)
Middle order 35.04 (1.159)
Lower order 15.27 (0.505)
Overall 30.22