Was WI ATG team overhyped?

[Migara]

No. The WIs team had lost Holding and Garner by the mid 80s and was weaker hence they couldn't win in the SC.

Also, they beat Pak in 80 with an attack of Iqbal Qasim, Qadir and Imran.

With the entire pace quartet, they would win in SL and Aus, and at worst draw in India.

That is as rare as unicorns. Most of the time they played an ordinary 4th seamer, who is likely to get smashed around on slower wickets. This wouldn't have mattered in faster pitches, but on dead SC wickets, there is frequent chance of 4th seamer getting exposed frequently and 3rd occasionally. And if you add the helmet to the equation, the terror tactics won't matter much.

If Marshall and Ambrose are playing they would win 50-50% of matches without an issue. But they will get defeated more often than outside SC. Against Indian team of 2020 is, on Indian tracks, I'd give Indian team 2-1 advantage at home and 1-2 else where.

 

[Migara]

Peak WI from around 79-84 wouldve easily won in SC, since they had in Lloyd, one of the greatest players of spin, and peak Viv and Kallicharan would’ve done very well too. Late 80s WI and post that was not the best WI. In 87-88, they only had Walsh.

Lloyd did not play spinner as good as Murali at any time of his life. And on Indian dustbowls I would rate Ashwin and Jadeja ahead of Murali.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Lloyd did not play spinner as good as Murali at any time of his life. And on Indian dustbowls I would rate Ashwin and Jadeja ahead of Murali.

Fair enough, but he dominate the quartet in India by a colossal margin and at a great SR. So it would be a good contest.

 

[Migara]

Fair enough, but he dominate the quartet in India by a colossal margin and at a great SR. So it would be a good contest.

Miandad and Imran sent them crashing to retirement.

 

[subshakerz]

That is as rare as unicorns. Most of the time they played an ordinary 4th seamer, who is likely to get smashed around on slower wickets. This wouldn't have mattered in faster pitches, but on dead SC wickets, there is frequent chance of 4th seamer getting exposed frequently and 3rd occasionally. And if you add the helmet to the equation, the terror tactics won't matter much.

If Marshall and Ambrose are playing they would win 50-50% of matches without an issue. But they will get defeated more often than outside SC. Against Indian team of 2020 is, on Indian tracks, I'd give Indian team 2-1 advantage at home and 1-2 else where.

We are talking about between 79 to 85 when the pace quartet was fairly common. If you have 4 worldclass pacers, I don't see WI losing two games against Ind unless it's all lottery pitches, which itself is 50/50.

 

[kyear2]

Most of us also feel the same when you apply your filters to Gavaskar/ Imran record .

I don't apply filters to either. Sunny is the 3rd greatest opener of all time, only dispute there is if we include Barry.

I have Imran 6th best fast bowler ever, same as the entire forum. What filters?

Now if you mean when we're discussing their merits against other guys of similar status, then we break them down. My only statement vs Sunny was that his record vs the Wai isn't representative and he did better on slower pitches. Which of those two are untrue. It doesn't lower him in anyway

 

[Sunil1z]

I don't apply filters to either. Sunny is the 3rd greatest opener of all time, only dispute there is if we include Barry.

I have Imran 6th best fast bowler ever, same as the entire forum. What filters?

Now if you mean when we're discussing their merits against other guys of similar status, then we break them down. My only statement vs Sunny was that his record vs the Wai isn't representative and he did better on slower pitches. Which of those two are untrue. It doesn't lower him in anyway

Similarly I was pointing out that despite having ATG pace attack till 2000 atleast , WI couldn’t win a Test series in Asia between 83-2000 . So your weird assertion that a Team doesn’t need spinners to win in Asia is absolutely incorrect. Otherwise Ambrose/ Walsh/Marshall should have been more than sufficient to win series in Asia.

 

[kyear2]

Similarly I was pointing out that despite having ATG pace attack till 2000 atleast , WI couldn’t win a Test series in Asia between 83-2000 . So your weird assertion that a Team doesn’t need spinners to win in Asia is absolutely incorrect. Otherwise Ambrose/ Walsh/Marshall should have been more than sufficient to win series in Asia.

Why are you counting from after '83?

85 is when the team started to decline from it's peak. Kallicharran had left, Lloyd retired, Roberts had already retired, Holding was more injured and soon retired, Richards and Greenidge either started or was well into their declines. Walsh was nowhere near what he was to become, Ambrose played 5 tests in Pakistan over the course of 7 years and multiple tours and never played in India. Marshall was sublime in the SC, so was Holding in India

What you're saying doesn't hold merit.

 

[Sunil1z]

Why are you counting from after '83?

85 is when the team started to decline from it's peak. Kallicharran had left, Lloyd retired, Roberts had already retired, Holding was more injured and soon retired, Richards and Greenidge either started or was well into their declines. Walsh was nowhere near what he was to become, Ambrose played 5 tests in Pakistan over the course of 7 years and multiple tours and never played in India. Marshall was sublime in the SC, so was Holding in India

What you're saying doesn't hold merit.

Because 83 was the last series WI have won in Asia ( IND, PAK , SL )

WI did have very good side in 90s though not great , yet they couldn’t win Test series against inferior IND side and a good Pak side despite having Ambrose and Walsh .This further disapproves your theory that pace bowlers can win you anywhere .

 

[Socerer 01]

Because 83 was the last series WI have won in Asia ( IND, PAK , SL )

WI did have very good side in 90s though not great , yet they couldn’t win Test series against inferior IND side and a good Pak side despite having Ambrose and Walsh .This further disapproves your theory that pace bowlers can win you anywhere .

damn dude you were arguing against me saying this in the past

good that you’ve seen the light

 

[subshakerz]

Because 83 was the last series WI have won in Asia ( IND, PAK , SL )

WI did have very good side in 90s though not great , yet they couldn’t win Test series against inferior IND side and a good Pak side despite having Ambrose and Walsh .This further disapproves your theory that pace bowlers can win you anywhere .

Four worldclass pace bowlers can win you anywhere.

 

[Sunil1z]

Four worldclass pace bowlers can win you anywhere.

I can also say that Warne + Murali + Oreilly + Ashwin can win you Test anywhere .

 

[kyear2]

Because 83 was the last series WI have won in Asia ( IND, PAK , SL )

WI did have very good side in 90s though not great , yet they couldn’t win Test series against inferior IND side and a good Pak side despite having Ambrose and Walsh .This further disapproves your theory that pace bowlers can win you anywhere .

Marshall didn't play in India post '83, Ambrose never did.

Look at the Pakistani '86 series. The first game we lost because we were bowled out by pace for 50 odd, 2nd match we won because of pace and 3rd was a draw where Pakistan ended the match at 125 / 7. Almost all low scoring, Marshall and co were superb.

Dude, spin bowling wasn't the reason for any of it. Dear God, context please.

Yes, great fast bowling can win anywhere

 

[Sunil1z]

Marshall didn't play in India post '83, Ambrose never did.

Look at the Pakistani '86 series. The first game we lost because we were bowled out by pace for 50 odd, 2nd match we won because of pace and 3rd was a draw where Pakistan ended the match at 125 / 7. Almost all low scoring, Marshall and co were superb.

Dude, spin bowling wasn't the reason for any of it. Dear God, context please.

Yes, great fast bowling can win anywhere

So you won’t consider 97 series in Pak where both Ambrose and Walsh played ?
You don’t consider Walsh ATG pacer do you?

Great spin bowlers can also win you matches anywhere as shown by Warne/Murali .

 

[Yeoman]

The peak of that team was the late 70s to mid 80s however they went unbeaten, home and away, from 1980 to 1995 which was an immense achievement. They were unbeaten by any team they went up against and you can barely do better than that.

 

[Northerner]

No they where not overhyped at all.
Greenidge Fredericks Haynes world class openers
Richards LLoyd Kanhai Kallicharran world class middle order
Murray and Dujon Wicketkeepers that could bat,
the fast bowlers. fearsome, nothing more needs to be said.


one of the best ever, anyone who saw them live could see that,

 

[Jumno]

The 70s to just over mid 80s WI fielded an ATG.

Until 95 they still had a great team. Very good bowlers.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I think the very best West Indies team was the one that played between the summer of 1980 and the summer of 1986.

They beat everyone everywhere convincingly in that period and drew only one series - a classic three match tussle in Australia that went 1-1.

In these six years,
Richards averaged 51.
Lloyd averaged 51.
Greenidge 49.
Richardson 48.
Gomes 45.
Haynes 42.
This is the pool that usually formed the top 6.
The wk Dujon averaged 42 with the bat while effecting about 4 dismissals per test.

Among their bowlers in that period,
Marshall averaged 20 something.
Garner also averaged under 21.
Holding took wickets at 23+.
Croft at 25+.
Roberts at 27+.
Four of those five bowlers bowled together most of the time.

It was a cracking team. And it has every right to be considered a top 3 team of all time.

I assume you mean northern hemispere summer re 1980. We beat them sans Viv in Feb-March of that year after they'd thrashed Australia in Australia.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Until 95 they still had a great team. Very good bowlers.

And Lara

 

[Jumno]

Hooper, chanderpaul, Lara, Arthur ton, Ambrose, Walsh after 95.