Waqar Younis vs James Anderson

[Gob]

think this is what seprates tier 2 ATGs from tier 1s

Ponting is amazing against Raw pace and Bounce but flawed against any form of movement

Root is amazing against Swing/seam and Spin but flawed against Bounce

Dravid is amazing against swing and can handle spin but flawed against Bounce

Kallis is amazing against bounce and can handle spin but flawed against swing.

while guys like Lara/Tendulkar/Viv don't have a glaring weakness.

Brian Lara had his struggles against genuine pace which is well documented and I don't recall any stand out Lara innings that happened to come under overly swinging/ seaming conditions

 

[Johan]

After making a hundred.

I don't know how else to put this. We are talking about two separate points here. One is Ponting's batting against the moving ball and the other is your flawed head to head logic.

If you score a century against an attack featuring a great bowler and if thet bowler did not hop off after few overs due to an injury and bowled at his best, that century should be a testimony to how the batsman over came the challenge of facing that bowler. Nit picking in to how many runs you made against that bowler doesn't make it any less valuable for me.

And making a century at any level is a success so it doesn't really matter if you fell to the great bowler or not since you have already done your job

if he made a hundred and then got out that's fine, you did the job.

but if you try to block, block and block and get out in the process then that's a problem from my point of view, and constantly losing your wicket to the same type of bowling (seam/swing) implies a fundamental flaw against one type of bowling and that is something I've a problem with, because imo that implies that you would struggle if you play in conditions suiting your vulnerability and against an opposition with multiple bowlers who can capitalize on that vulnerability.

aka His record in India and England, top tier debates are gonna be cutthroat, and this is actually a very important point that so many pacers have found success against Ponting because he haven't been able to block them out.

Brian Lara had his struggles against genuine pace which is well documented and I don't recall any stand out Lara innings that happened to come under overly swinging/ seaming conditions

He had an ATG tour of England in 1995

 

[Gob]

if he made a hundred and then got out that's fine, you did the job.

but if you try to block, block and block and get out in the process then that's a problem from my point of view, and constantly losing your wicket to the same type of bowling (seam/swing) implies a fundamental flaw against one type of bowling and that is something I've a problem with, because imo that implies that you would struggle if you play in conditions suiting your vulnerability and against an opposition with multiple bowlers who can capitalize on that vulnerability.

aka His record in India and England, top tier debates are gonna be cutthroat, and this is actually a very important point that so many pacers have found success against Ponting because he haven't been able to block them out.


He had an ATG tour of England in 1995

I know. From memory, wickets were pretty flat and I can't think of any standout great bowlers

 

[Gob]

Ponting's record in England against England is perfectly fine ftr. Averages almost 45 with a century in each tour. That's perfectly fine

 

[Johan]

I know. From memory, wickets were pretty flat and I can't think of any standout great bowlers

iirc the first four were hard and the last two were very good, and Fraser/Cork isn't a great attack but with a duke in hand they were problematic, he outbatted everyone else by a huge huge margin

 

[Johan]

Ponting's record in England against England is perfectly fine ftr. Averages almost 45 with a century in each tour. That's perfectly fine

he struggled with Gough in the 01 Ashes and Flintoff in the 05 Ashes iirc, averaging like 42 and 39, in the 97 he played one of his best innings ever in England which I give him full credit for, 2009 England was ultra flat and he kind of went missing after a good first knock. Averaging 41 in England overall.

 

[Gob]

iirc the first four were hard and the last two were very good, and Fraser/Cork isn't a great attack but with a duke in hand they were problematic, he outbatted everyone else by a huge huge margin

Didn't he made the bulk of his runs in the last two?

Didn't check just going by memory

 

[Gob]

he struggled with Gough in the 01 Ashes and Flintoff in the 05 Ashes iirc, averaging like 42 and 39, in the 97 he played one of his best innings ever in England which I give him full credit for, 2009 England was ultra flat and he kind of went missing after a good first knock. Averaging 41 in England overall.

It's 44 vs England. There were 2 neutral tests vs Pakistan

 

[Johan]

Didn't he made the bulk of his runs in the last two?

Didn't check just going by memory

pretty sure he was gun the whole series bar the third test iirc

 

[Coronis]

I mean, this doesn't really work, because it's matches involving them and not head to head but hey, I'll play this game too, here you've his numbers against Ambrose and Walsh, batting at 5, his average and strike rate fall
View attachment 41976

You mean when he was a mid 40’s batsman batsman he averaged “40”? Oh no!

Mate, surviving a great spell from a great fast bowlers is as impressive feet as any in Test batsmanship. What if you are trying to save a game and blocking out? wait I better hit out and make some runs against Bumrah or that dude on cricketweb.net would diminish my batting skills against quality pace. Yeah not very good

As per my take on Ponting, we'll he had his struggles against moving ball from time to time but it did not really stood out for me because he found ways to score runs. I'd probably say he was not any worse than Lara but that's my take. There are guys like Dravid who was really good against swing and then there were guys like Sehwag who was at the opposite end of the spectrum by being really bad. Ponting is somewhere in the middle

There’s a whole other website you should check out

 

[sayon basak]

Fuller Pilch said Ponting is arguably better.

and Nah, he was just decent against movement, not very good or great. Ponting is an ATG against Pace and Bounce, not Movement.

This

 

[PlayerComparisons]

that man isn't better than Waugh

In your opinion.

It’s not unreasonable to rate Ponting higher.

 

[Johan]

In your opinion.

It’s not unreasonable to rate Ponting higher.

 

[govinda indian fan]

Was he really? averaging 25+ against Aus and Eng, a home series against a fading Windies where Akram/Bishop/Ambrose all outbowled him too, he was great but he made a lot of his stats on the back of bullying hopeless attacks at home.

Marshall better.

If am not wrong waqar averaged 40 vs india of course in small sample size of four tests

 

[govinda indian fan]

after Dec 1994 (to 2003)

Darren Gough – 53 matches, 206 wickets @ 27.92, 50.8 SR, 9 5fers
Andy Caddick – 54 matches, 211 wickets @28.27, 55 SR, 11 5fers and 1 10fer
Javagal Srinath – 53 matches, 197 wickets @29.68, 60.3 SR, 10 5fers and 1 10fer
Chris Cairns – 46 matches, 169 wickets @ 26.79, 50.6 SR, 10 5fers and 1 10fer
Angus Fraser – 25 matches, 92 wickets @ 26.8, 56.6SR, 7 5fers and 2 10fers
Jacques Kallis – 73 matches, 155 wickets @29.54, 65.52 SR, 4 5fers
Dominic Corc – 37 matches, 131 wickets @29.80, 58.6SR, 5 5fers
Waqar Younis – 54 matches, 183 wickets@28.13, 51.1SR, 3 5fers and 1 10fer

Yikes, what a fall off, and this is like 60-70% of his career, his ability to bowl away from home also completely dissipated.

waqar having stats similar to srinath except strike rate

 

[govinda indian fan]

Against Australia, 10 wickets from 2 games, Average – 25.8
Against England, 22 wickets from 5 games, Average – 25.3
Against Newzealand – 56 wickets from 7 games, Average – 14.3
Against the West Indies – 35 wickers from 6 games, Average – 19.42
Against Sri Lanka – 30 wickets from 5 games, Average – 17
Against Zimbabwe – 27 wickets from 3 games, Average – 13.8

so even at peak, he was rendered mortal against top teams bar a fading Windies, and then he had 8 years of just being a good bowler even with minnow bashing, honestly Waqar is like Gooch tier, an insane peak but his overall career is meh, and he has ball tampering involved.

You didnt inculde four tests vs india

 

[capt_Luffy]

If am not wrong waqar averaged 40 vs india of course in small sample size of four tests

You didnt inculde four tests vs india

That wasn't peak Waqar. In his debut series, Waqar did reasonable well I believe as it was extremely high scoring.

 

[Slifer]

Brian Lara had his struggles against genuine pace which is well documented and I don't recall any stand out Lara innings that happened to come under overly swinging/ seaming conditions

He made 132 in the final test in 1997 in Perth on one of the worst wickets in test history.

 

[Gob]

He made 132 in the final test in 1997 in Perth on one of the worst wickets in test history.

In the 4th dig yes