WANTED: One English wicket-keeper

[PhoenixFire]

Having Flintoff at 8 is just going too far.

 

[aussie]

So we still have a pathetic number 8 then?

Surely the idea is to put in a proper batsman to drop Flintoff to 7 then a keeper at 8 and 3 other bowlers?

Even if Pothas does get a chance & bats @ 7, the case will still be the same. The option to have a keeper @ 8 is an option, Read is doing well with the gloves but he'll have to contribute with the willow a lot more in the future or esle he'll be gone soon. Since i don't see Davies as a #8 keeper.

 

[aussie tragic]

Having Flintoff at 8 is just going too far.

And yet again I say that Flintoff at # 7 would be a perfect plan for the English team as a specialist bat would be at # 6 and the WK would be at # 8 so that he can have some time to develop without so much pressure..... just a thought....

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

 

[BoyBrumby]

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

I'm inclined to agree. I've generally been a staunch advocate of a five-man attack, but when the captain palpably doesn't rate and/or trust his fifth option it becomes pointless. The only reason we've got to play a fifth specialist bowler just now is Fred's ankle being shot. He couldn't do 25% of the bowling without dire consequences for his long-term future.

If at any point we could put out a fit & firing attack of Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, Jones & Panesar the five-man attack again has merit. Tis a pity none of the last four can bat for toffee tho.

 

[age_master]

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

I have to agree, the 5th English bowler rarely seems to do much apart from get hit around.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Tis a pity none of the last four can bat for toffee tho.

Simon Jones ain't the worst...

 

[Bob Bamber]

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

The difference is that with 5 bowlers and Giles England needed the four seemers to try and take the wickets while Gilo held up an end. With it I would still stay with the 5. I think with Pothas at 6 Flintoff at 7 there is enough batting. The only reason this has been bought up now is that the batsmen have failed. If Flintoff and Jones/Read were in any kind of form I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Its also a bit of a negative move.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The difference is that with 5 bowlers and Giles England needed the four seemers to try and take the wickets while Gilo held up an end. With it I would still stay with the 5. I think with Pothas at 6 Flintoff at 7 there is enough batting. The only reason this has been bought up now is that the batsmen have failed. If Flintoff and Jones/Read were in any kind of form I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Its also a bit of a negative move.

England don't have a 5th bowler worthy of playing. And the 5th bowler who is playing isn't getting the overs to have an impact even if he could bowl out Boycott's mum.

It's negative to pick an extra bowler because you don't have faith that your 4 best bowlers can do the job. If England had four specialist bowlers worthy of selection, it would be a different matter. But as things stand, they barely even have 2, so why bother to play a substandard 5th?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Simon Jones ain't the worst...

Good stuff that. Depressing how good the boy is/was. Hope he gets back to full fitness sharpish.

As a batsman he obviously has a good eye & as he's a big, strong Taff when he hits it it goes a fair way, but I still don't see a test 8 in him quite.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

That yorker length ball that he blocked through the covers for four was something special though.

 

[aussie]

The question is how much of a difference is there between a 5-pronged England attack and a 4-pronged attack. And if Mahmood is the 5th prong, I'd say there's not much of a difference in terms of effectiveness. As such, I'd advocate a specialist batsman at 6, Flintoff (fully fit) at 7 and Read at 8.

But full strenght its a different story once Jones is fit again, then again Read @ 8 will only work if he scores runs in the coming months, even if his keeping remains top notch.

But if Jones does prove England's version on Bond then the 4-bowlers could work, but the keeper dilemma would still be up..

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But full strenght its a different story once Jones is fit again, then again Read @ 8 will only work if he scores runs in the coming months, even if his keeping remains top notch.

But if Jones does prove England's version on Bond then the 4-bowlers could work, but the keeper dilemma would still be up..

I'm not convinced that Harmison deserves to be in the England Test team right now. Especially if he's not getting the new ball... which he isn't.

Hoggard, Flintoff (when fit), Panesar, Jones (when fit).

 

[marc71178]

But full strenght its a different story once Jones is fit again, then again Read @ 8 will only work if he scores runs in the coming months, even if his keeping remains top notch.

Compared to the other options we've seen at 8 (Saj being the current one) - double figures would be enough.

 

[Goughy]

The difference is that with 5 bowlers and Giles England needed the four seemers to try and take the wickets while Gilo held up an end. With it I would still stay with the 5. I think with Pothas at 6 Flintoff at 7 there is enough batting. The only reason this has been bought up now is that the batsmen have failed. If Flintoff and Jones/Read were in any kind of form I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Its also a bit of a negative move.

I love it how people think you can ever have enough batting. There would still be a weak tail. Pothas, if he played, could bat 8 and an extra specialist batsman would bat 6. It gives Eng an opportunity to be the strongest and longest in terms of batting.

Im not going to go in to why 5 bowlers is a bad idea for the 100th time. Apart from to say that to win Tests you must score more runs than your opponents and virtually every test shows the benefits of guys lower down scoring runs (Pollock, Warne etc) and turning a potentially average total into a good one and being able to salvage an innings if the top order collapses. Also, f you want to win games you have to bowl the opposition out relatively cheaply (generally in under 90 overs) and there are not enough overs in these scenarios for 5 bowlers to bowl equally and heavily, and usually at least 1 bowler is left twiddling his thumbs whilst the others take wickets and bowl overs.

 

[aussie]

I'm not convinced that Harmison deserves to be in the England Test team right now. Especially if he's not getting the new ball... which he isn't.

Hoggard, Flintoff (when fit), Panesar, Jones (when fit).

Gradually Harmo has got his mojo back in this series, won't drop him just like that. People keep saying that Harmo is the spearhead & he should get the new ball. AFAIC he isn't the spearhead, Flintoff is England best bowler thus the spearhead & Harmo is better with the older ball in both forms of the game thats why i'm disappointed he retired from ODI's.

Compared to the other options we've seen at 8 (Saj being the current one) - double figures would be enough.

When Read is getting double figures as regularly as a tail-ender? get him out FFS.....

 

[Matt79]

Read looks like a pretty good keeper from what I've seen, and he's a fair enough test number 8. My selection would be to have Joyce in at 6, Fred at 7, and Read at 8. If Freddie isn't fit to bowl more than ten overs a day at the moment, then maybe he should actually be rested and given a chance to recover properly. If he's able to contribute slightly more than that, you've got two workhorses who appear to thrive on bowling a lot in Hoggard and Paneser, so you should be fine. Probably means Harmison needs to go, as his inconsistency would be too big a burden in a four man attack - not sure who to put in instead, maybe Anderson until Broad is ready.

If you do find yourself in the field for two days in a row, Pietersen is capable of holding out an end for a few overs...

 

[marc71178]

When Read is getting double figures as regularly as a tail-ender? get him out FFS.....

Prior to this Test, Read had only been dismissed in single figures once in 7 innings, and all of the other times he'd gone past 20...

Comparing that to the number 8s we've seen in this series for England (for the record, Mahmood has a total of 18 runs in 6 innings) and if England can go with 4 bowlers, then Read has a place at 8.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

People keep saying that Harmo is the spearhead & he should get the new ball.

Harmison should get the new ball because it's when his style of bowling is most effective. He preys on awkward bounce and pace.

Harmo is better with the older ball

Say what? I couldn't disagree more.

 

[aussie]

Prior to this Test, Read had only been dismissed in single figures once in 7 innings, and all of the other times he'd gone past 20...

Comparing that to the number 8s we've seen in this series for England (for the record, Mahmood has a total of 18 runs in 6 innings) and if England can go with 4 bowlers, then Read has a place at 8.

Fair enough, but we'll see how he goes with the bat in the coming months, because he has to start scoring some sort of runs to keep his place with other options around, his keeping won't keep him in regardless of how it helps the structure of the side. Jones was dropped for that exact reason.