W G Grace VS Donald Bradman

[Cricket Bliss]

Greatest Cricketer in Cricket History (including domestic Cricket)

 

[Thala_0710]

Grace as an AR easily clears everyone in FC Cricket history including the Don

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

D.G Bradman. Greatest cricketer in history by far.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Gary Sobers

 

[shortpitched713]

If we're considering FC cricket as a whole, then of course WG has monumental batting and very useful bowling stats, given the time he played in, being very low scoring.

Then you realize he's up against a guy who had a batting average over 95 in over 234 FC matches.

It's not even close.

 

[Thala_0710]

If we're considering FC cricket as a whole, then of course WG has monumental batting and very useful bowling stats, given the time he played in, being very low scoring.

Then you realize he's up against a guy who had a batting average over 95 in over 234 FC matches.

It's not even close.

Wg grace was almost as ahead of his peers on batting alone as Bradman was in FC stats. Add in the bowling numbers, it isn't close but in favour of Grace.

 

[shortpitched713]

If Grace's average south of 40 adjusts up to even 60, it is still light years away from 95.

Even give me Grace's best two decade span, and we can run the comparison then. Also keep in mind, the more we adjust the batting average up, we have to do the same for the bowling, lessening it's impact in the argument. I expect Grace's record to be somewhat Sobersesque, with an elite level of batting, and a little above average with bowling, although I'd be happy to be shown wrong.

 

[Johan]

If Grace's average south of 40 adjusts up to even 60, it is still light years away from 95.

Even give me Grace's best two decade span, and we can run the comparison then. Also keep in mind, the more we adjust the batting average up, we have to do the same for the bowling, lessening it's impact in the argument. I expect Grace's record to be somewhat Sobersesque, with an elite level of batting, and a little above average with bowling, although I'd be happy to be shown wrong.

Grace's contemporaries average in the 20s in the FC circuit iirc, but doesn't matter as they were probably chumps

 

[Coronis]

If Grace's average south of 40 adjusts up to even 60, it is still light years away from 95.

Even give me Grace's best two decade span, and we can run the comparison then. Also keep in mind, the more we adjust the batting average up, we have to do the same for the bowling, lessening it's impact in the argument. I expect Grace's record to be somewhat Sobersesque, with an elite level of batting, and a little above average with bowling, although I'd be happy to be shown wrong.

Ask and ye shall receive

Grace 1868-1887 (20 years - age 19-39)
428 matches 682 innings 30061 @ 48.41 81 tons 132 fifties
2016 @ 16.37 SR 41.39 185 5’fers 56 10’fers
559 catches

 

[shortpitched713]

Do you know what the average runs per wicket in FC cricket at the time was?

 

[Coronis]

Do you know what the average runs per wicket in FC cricket at the time was?

I mean, no. Looking at test matches from that time period… it was roughly 21.

 

[shortpitched713]

I mean, no. Looking at test matches from that time period… it was roughly 21.

Using back of the envelope calculations, that should give him an over 55 batting and over 29 bowling averages at something like a competitve Test standard (which didn't properly exist during his career, definitely not during early part of peak).

It is a Sobersesque performance, meaningfully better with the ball, but slightly worse with the bat. Putting aside the mountain of confounding questions (for one, would he even be bowling legally by a modern standard from above the shoulder, with his preferred brand of roundarm?), this is simply not a Bradmanesque level of performance, as great as it is in it's own right.

 

[Coronis]

Using back of the envelope calculations, that should give him an over 55 batting and over 29 bowling averages at something like a competitve Test standard (which didn't properly exist during his career, definitely not during early part of peak).

It is a Sobersesque performance, meaningfully better with the ball, but slightly worse with the bat. Putting aside the mountain of confounding questions (for one, would he even be bowling legally by a modern standard from above the shoulder, with his preferred brand of roundarm?), this is simply not a Bradmanesque level of performance, as great as it is in it's own right.

Malinga’s roundarm worked fine.

 

[Coronis]

Using back of the envelope calculations, that should give him an over 55 batting and over 29 bowling averages at something like a competitve Test standard (which didn't properly exist during his career, definitely not during early part of peak).

It is a Sobersesque performance, meaningfully better with the ball, but slightly worse with the bat. Putting aside the mountain of confounding questions (for one, would he even be bowling legally by a modern standard from above the shoulder, with his preferred brand of roundarm?), this is simply not a Bradmanesque level of performance, as great as it is in it's own right.

Besides uh since it is a 20 year span looking at that comparitively it comes out to more like 75/25 over the last 20 years. Unsure where your numbers are coming from

 

[Thala_0710]

If Grace's average south of 40 adjusts up to even 60, it is still light years away from 95.

Grace's avg adjusts to 80+ in Bradman's era. And then you add in the bowling

 

[Thala_0710]

Ask and ye shall receive

Grace 1868-1887 (20 years - age 19-39)
428 matches 682 innings 30061 @ 48.41 81 tons 132 fifties
2016 @ 16.37 SR 41.39 185 5’fers 56 10’fers
559 catches

If you don't believe the batting avg of 80+, surely then the 2016 wkts @16.37 makes WG the GOAT by bowling.

 

[Thala_0710]

Grace's contemporaries average in the 20s in the FC circuit iirc, but doesn't matter as they were probably chumps

Really? You of all people using this argument?

 

[shortpitched713]

Malinga’s roundarm worked fine.

Yeah, because he built his action knowing the rule.

I haven't seen any footage of WG bowling. For all I know he could have an arm slot more like a borderline submarine/sidearm pitcher, which would be illegal now, but wasn't back in Grace's day.

 

[shortpitched713]

Besides uh since it is a 20 year span looking at that comparitively it comes out to more like 75/25 over the last 20 years. Unsure where your numbers are coming from

I normalized using your 21 runs/wicket compared to about 30 for the modern day. Giving me 69.16 and 23.39. That's for an FC record though. Multiplied by .8 for batting and 1.25 for bowling to get something akin to a Test standard average of 55.33 and 29.23.

 

[shortpitched713]

Grace's avg adjusts to 80+ in Bradman's era. And then you add in the bowling

Genuinely how?