Viv Richards vs Sachin Tendulkar

[Johan]

for so much talk of averages , would anyone here take Sangakkara over Lara? including Sangakkara himself?

 

[subshakerz]

for so much talk of averages , would anyone here take Sangakkara over Lara? including Sangakkara himself?

No they wouldn't but once a player falls below 50 they do tend to be viewed as not reaching an ATG threshold and a lesser player.

The difference then between a 47 and 52 average is more significant than a 52 and 57 difference.

 

[Johan]

No they wouldn't but once a player falls below 50 they do tend to be viewed as not reaching an ATG threshold and a lesser player.

The difference then between a 47 and 52 average is more significant than a 52 and 57 difference.

thats just a thing of perception for most people , and furthur shows why just looking at average does not resolve a comparasion between two Batsmen , otherwise Sutcliffe would be superior to Hobbs ( 56 vs 60 ) but that isn't the case for anyone who saw both bat , same with Lara and Sanga ( 52 vs 57 ) , but in the case of Viv not are we solely relying on averages but also removing the feat he averaged 50+ from 77-88 ( if WSC is included ) and banking off the last three years to make it seem he was Alastair Cook ( 45 ) and VVS laxman ( 46 iirc ) level after 76.

 

[ImpatientLime]

for so much talk of averages , would anyone here take Sangakkara over Lara? including Sangakkara himself?

big kenny barrington a lock for the world atg xi

hammond>richards/lara/sachin/kallis/waugh/sangakarra

 

[subshakerz]

thats just a thing of perception for most people , and furthur shows why just looking at average does not resolve a comparasion between two Batsmen , otherwise Sutcliffe would be superior to Hobbs ( 56 vs 60 ) but that isn't the case for anyone who saw both bat , same with Lara and Sanga ( 52 vs 57 ) , but in the case of Viv not are we solely relying on averages but also removing the feat he averaged 50+ from 77-88 ( if WSC is included ) and banking off the last three years to make it seem he was Alastair Cook ( 45 ) and VVS laxman ( 46 iirc ) level after 76.

I agree but I don't think it is a coincidence that virtually every ATG batsman has managed to average over 50 overall in their career, so as arbitrary as the number is, it holds some value.

However, beyond 50, I don't think the average difference matters quite as much as having a well-rounded record otherwise and having high peer rating. So someone like Sanga with 57 will fall behind Viv who is 50.

 

[Slifer]

I agree but I don't think it is a coincidence that virtually every ATG batsman has managed to average over 50 overall in their career, so as arbitrary as the number is, it holds some value.

However, beyond 50, I don't think the average difference matters quite as much as having a well-rounded record otherwise and having high peer rating. So someone like Sanga with 57 will fall behind Viv who is 50.

Yeah because as much as Shiv averages 51 or whatever, he's not a better batsman than Clive Lloyd or Rohan Kanhai.

 

[srbhkshk]

I'll say Richards in ODIs and Sachin in tests, but these two are probably the strongest ATG combo in terms of having a claim for both #2 test and #1 odi batsman of all time and both can be rated ahead of the other one in either format.

 

[Chrish]

SRT dominating the poll like this has to do with change in age demographics on this forum: most if not all old timers are gone and replaced by younger posters.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah because as much as Shiv averages 51 or whatever, he's not a better batsman than Clive Lloyd or Rohan Kanhai.

To clarify, if you are an ATG you will almost always average over 50, but averaging over 50 doesn't make you an ATG.

 

[Anil]

I don’t think Tendulkar was that far behind Richards vs pace, he was excellent and more importantly fearless against McGrath, Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar et al in his prime…

 

[Migara]

Tendulkar probably faced better fast bowlers too, than Richards.

Richards - Imran, Wasim, Hadlee, Lillee, Thomson, McDermott
Tendulkar - McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, Steyn, Bond, McDermott. He played very little of Wasim, Waqar, Asif, Rabada and Marshall I suppose.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think Tendulkar was that far behind Richards vs pace, he was excellent and more importantly fearless against McGrath, Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar et al in his prime…

He was very good against pace but conservative in his approach compared to Viv. Sachin would take his time to settle in before choosing to attack the pacers once they were worn down a bit.

 

[Johan]

Tendulkar probably faced better fast bowlers too, than Richards.

Richards - Imran, Wasim, Hadlee, Lillee, Thomson, McDermott
Tendulkar - McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, Steyn, Bond, McDermott. He played very little of Wasim, Waqar, Asif, Rabada and Marshall I suppose.

what are Sachin's stats against the two Ws and Mcgrath?

 

[trundler]

Must be better than Viv against Hadlee.

 

[TheJediBrah]

what are Sachin's stats against the two Ws and Mcgrath?

In games involving McGrath he averages 36
In games involving the 2 Ws he averages 33

 

[Johan]

In games involving McGrath he averages 36
In games involving the 2 Ws he averages 33

ah....

 

[TheJediBrah]

Viv averages 43 in games involving Hadlee.

Not really a fair comparison though because the overall attacks with McGrath and both Ws would definitely be stronger than Hadlee's

 

[trundler]

Viv averages 43 in games involving Hadlee.

Not really a fair comparison though because the overall attacks with McGrath and both Ws would definitely be stronger than Hadlee's

You sure? He averaged 19 in one series in NZ. He only faced Hadlee in one other series IIRC and Paddles did well.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You sure? He averaged 19 in one series in NZ. He only faced Hadlee in one other series IIRC and Paddles did well.

Averaged 19.25 in the 1987 series in NZ (3 Tests)
Averaged 62.00 in the 1985 series in WI (4 Tests)

overall average 43

also can't believe NZ played a 4 Test series, things were sure different back then

 

[Johan]

Hadlee and Viv met in 2 series , in the 85 4 Match series where Hadlee got him twice ( once after a half century) , Viv averaged 61 this series and was the third highest run scorer ( played 6 innings only , the top 2 played 8 ) , Hadlee with the bowl averaged 27.

next series in 87 , he averaged 19 but only played 4 innings and got out twice to chatfield , once to snedden and only once to Hadlee.

for other pacers , Viv averages 46+ in matches with Imran , 48+ at 75 SR in matches with Lillee , 50+ at 75 SR against a young wasim , around 88 against willis and 59+ With Botham and till 81 he was averaging 70+ against Botham ( 9 matches , 4 in 80 and 5 in 81 iirc ) , Botham till 81 was averaging 21.75 with 49 SR with the ball , Viv averaged 44.8 against 70s Thompson ( peak thommo ) with 2 hundreds.