*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Flem274*]

will keep the flexing to this thread. how many past nz sides does our genuine second eleven embarrass? this is assuming we play a spinner on a normal deck and select conservatively.

rachin
cooper
conway
young
phillips
mitchell
cleaver
jamieson
henry
ferguson
ajaz

 

[Prince EWS]

will keep the flexing to this thread. how many past nz sides does our genuine second eleven embarrass? this is assuming we play a spinner on a normal deck and select conservatively.

rachin
cooper
conway
young
phillips
mitchell
cleaver
jamieson
henry
ferguson
ajaz

I reckon we probably have some members who'd think it'd beat the current side too.

 

[Flem274*]

I reckon we probably have some members who'd think it'd beat the current side too.

not sure if referring to yourself or nzfan

i was going to make a post in the tour thread devils advocating conway, young, jamieson and ferguson being better players now than some incumbents but i want ross to get the 20 tons first.

 

[Prince EWS]

not sure if referring to yourself or nzfan

Haha I was mainly thinking of nzfan but didn't want to be a dick and call him out. Thundaboult would probably have a think about it too.

I do think Conway and Young are probably better than Blundell and Nicholls, but those are probably the only changes I'd make to the "best eleven" so I'm not putting myself in that basket.

 

[Flem274*]

Haha I was mainly thinking of nzfan but didn't want to be a dick and call him out. Thundaboult would probably have a think about it too.

I do think Conway and Young are probably better than Blundell and Nicholls, but those are probably the only changes I'd make to the "best eleven" so I'm not putting myself in that basket.

yea kane, latham, watling and the trio outnumbering the auckland duo in particular should see the firsts win but it's nice to have the seconds relatively close to the firsts

 

[morgieb]

Haha I was mainly thinking of nzfan but didn't want to be a dick and call him out. Thundaboult would probably have a think about it too.

I do think Conway and Young are probably better than Blundell and Nicholls, but those are probably the only changes I'd make to the "best eleven" so I'm not putting myself in that basket.

I feel like Phillips has to be close to Taylor at this point too. Impressive depth, all three I suspect would make most other sides around the world. Can argue the same for Jamison and Ferguson.

OTOH NZ opening and spinner depth stocks still look kinda bad. But when has that not been the case?

 

[Prince EWS]

I feel like Phillips has to be close to Taylor at this point too. Impressive depth, all three I suspect would make most other sides around the world. Can argue the same for Jamison and Ferguson.

OTOH NZ opening and spinner depth stocks still look kinda bad. But when has that not been the case?

Yeah there are definitely pitches on which I think Jamieson and/or Ferguson would be a better pick than Southee, but it's still definitely less than half the pitches NZ play on IMO.

 

[Flem274*]

jamieson and ferguson are keeping standards high too. jamieson in particular is a more raw talented southee who also takes his batting seriously and ferguson obviously has his own thing he brings as a threat to the main trio.

hard to see anyone getting past those 5 until some injuries or retirements so hopefully duffy can stay on his upwards trend sears can stay fit and who knows, maybe one of the meme medium pacers will be the real deal like a kiwi less good abbas or philander.

 

[morgieb]

Yeah there are definitely pitches on which I think Jamieson and/or Ferguson would be a better pick than Southee, but it's still definitely less than half the pitches NZ play on IMO.

Yeah I wouldn't pick either of them over the trio either, but they're not that far off and I think there'd be a lot of teams they would make (though in fairness the majority of countries have a settled + quality seam attack)

The one problem is that the trio are all over 30 and Ferguson is 29 and bowlers that are that quick tend to have short lifespans. Are there any top prospects under the age of 23?

 

[Flem274*]

ben sears obviously. matthew fisher is rapid, has strange on field chat but is nowhere near northern since they keep purchasing nz test players.

fraser sheat has had an amazing start to his career but nothing screams natural bowling talent there imo. still, a kid getting results is someone to follow.

carlos spencers kid got a name drop on the radio yesterday lol. 15-16 years old and is a bowler. if he's as fun to watch bowl as his dad was in rugby then i hope he makes it.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Gonna start to hide Taylor in the field soon I think, he's been average for a few years and they'll need to blood a new first slip.

 

[Flem274*]

tim southee, barring disaster, should pass 300 test wickets this summer. if he does he will be the first kiwi quick since hadlee to do so and put himself in a solid club internationally as well. if current trends remain he'll get there with a better average (currently 28.83) than the likes of chaminda vaas, zaheer khan and brett lee.

given the shambolic state of the side he debuted in, his first 4 years of being thrown in out of his depth and the fact he's not a lone ranger, that's a massive gain for the nz system.

 

[Flem274*]

if we jimmy anderson southee's record, since becoming test standard in 2012 he has 249w @ 26 and that includes spending 2015-17 bowling like jimmy anderson with a kookaburra. i believe that according to english logic this makes southee an all time great bowler since the 250 wickets mark was about where we first started hearing it.

solid away record, really loves bowling to subcontinent sides which i guess you expect with his height and movement. he's much less effective against the SENA nations.

 

[nzfan]

Here comes the essay of the week

I'm enthusiastic about the fringe players but not so enthusiastic that I'm stupid There's no way to replace Kane, he's one and only. Same with Taylor.

Of the next lot goes without saying I rate Ravindra, Phillips, Seifert, Sears, Nathan Smith and Cleaver. Fortunately for us and unfortunately for them the wait will be long for these players as the queue to play for the national team is huge. During the time of waiting if they are improving don't see any reason why these can't be better than some of our current players. Kane, Taylor, Boult are three players that are pretty much irreplaceable. They are once in a generation players. One of these players go missing it will leave a massive void. Southee and Latham are also near irreplaceable.

Ajaz, Lockie, Young, Conway, Jamieson are already there and definitely belong to international cricket already so no point wondering how they will go.

I don't go by domestic numbers, they are massively skewed. Some of the above players don't get to play full domestic season and with NZ A program over the last 3-4 years a lot of them have been playing near test sides.

Lockie will find a spot overseas particularly in sub continent. It could come at the cost of Wagner or Southee if Jamieson continues to bat as he is right now and become irreplaceable.

Still rate Ravindra as the next best spin prospect after Ajaz and Somerville. I've seen enough of him bowling at NZ A against much better sides. If only Firebirds can bowl him in red ball cricket for an extended spell his average will catch up. For that to happen either Bracewell has to move on from Firebirds or change his captaincy or If Ravindra can move to CD or ND or Auckland. He will get to bowl lot more on pitches that are slightly more conducive to spin. I was thinking post Jeetan Patel Ravindra will get a reasonable go but our captain has started to think he's the next Jeetan Patel coming out of captial

Ish Sodhi has to find a different gear in his bowling and has to get lot more consistent with lines and length if he has to play test cricket consistently. Left arm spin and leg spin is gold for any team. They will always be placed ahead of right arm finger spinners just because of the angles and variation they provide. I still wouldn't rule Sodhi out, spinners mature a bit late in their careers. Rippon is way too inconsistent to consider both with bat and ball. Probably a better batsman than a bowler.

Ben Sears is definitely a backup for Lockie. I don't see anyone ahead of Sears in terms of pace. Can't ask a bowler to be miser and also bowl quick. It's obvious he's going to leak some runs but short quick bursts sets the game up nicely for other bowlers to pick up wickets.

Nathan Smith is a definite like for like replacement for CDG. The dude bowls at a healthy 130 to 135 k and swings the ball late both ways. Definitely a very good batsman and improving every year. Two more years he'll fill in the void of CDG. Smith is a definitely better bowler than Darryl Mitchell and likely as good a batsman.

 

[Athlai]

if we jimmy anderson southee's record, since becoming test standard in 2012 he has 249w @ 26 and that includes spending 2015-17 bowling like jimmy anderson with a kookaburra. i believe that according to english logic this makes southee an all time great bowler since the 250 wickets mark was about where we first started hearing it.

solid away record, really loves bowling to subcontinent sides which i guess you expect with his height and movement. he's much less effective against the SENA nations.

I for one think we should Jimmy Anderson his record.

 

[Mike5181]

Haven't seen Dean Foxcroft mentioned, in terms of skill with the ball, how does he compare to Ravindra, Phillips, etc. Obviously a lot of top 6 batting potential in all three formats there.

 

[nzfan]

Haven't seen Dean Foxcroft mentioned, in terms of skill with the ball, how does he compare to Ravindra, Phillips, etc. Obviously a lot of top 6 batting potential in all three formats there as well.

Definitely a very good batsman. Bowls all right but not of international class I'd think. Don't think he's close to NZ A. Now also Ken McClure has founds some very good form, Cooper and Carter from ND also now involved in NZ A. Besides he's not here this season and when he comes back he'll have to start all over again. I don't see much changing in the next year or so but definitely one for the future.

I don't rate Phillips' bowling honestly. Just some nude offies. Never really going to take off but would love to be proven wrong :-) Too many offies around and probably the easiest of all spin skills unless putting heaps of revs which most part timers don't

 

[Prince EWS]

Haven't seen Dean Foxcroft mentioned, in terms of skill with the ball, how does he compare to Ravindra, Phillips, etc. Obviously a lot of top 6 batting potential in all three formats there as well.

He has a much stronger history of actually bowling than Phillips - I actually think Phillips has a better action and more to work with if he really wanted to develop it, but Foxcroft has the experience in terms of actually playing as an allrounder through the ranks. The main thing really is that he hasn't really made any FC runs yet. This season could've been big for him in terms of pushing for a theoretical batsman-spinner role, it's a real shame what happened.

 

[Flem274*]

Here comes the essay of the week

I'm enthusiastic about the fringe players but not so enthusiastic that I'm stupid There's no way to replace Kane, he's one and only. Same with Taylor.

Of the next lot goes without saying I rate Ravindra, Phillips, Seifert, Sears, Nathan Smith and Cleaver. Fortunately for us and unfortunately for them the wait will be long for these players as the queue to play for the national team is huge. During the time of waiting if they are improving don't see any reason why these can't be better than some of our current players. Kane, Taylor, Boult are three players that are pretty much irreplaceable. They are once in a generation players. One of these players go missing it will leave a massive void. Southee and Latham are also near irreplaceable.

Ajaz, Lockie, Young, Conway, Jamieson are already there and definitely belong to international cricket already so no point wondering how they will go.

I don't go by domestic numbers, they are massively skewed. Some of the above players don't get to play full domestic season and with NZ A program over the last 3-4 years a lot of them have been playing near test sides.

Lockie will find a spot overseas particularly in sub continent. It could come at the cost of Wagner or Southee if Jamieson continues to bat as he is right now and become irreplaceable.

Still rate Ravindra as the next best spin prospect after Ajaz and Somerville. I've seen enough of him bowling at NZ A against much better sides. If only Firebirds can bowl him in red ball cricket for an extended spell his average will catch up. For that to happen either Bracewell has to move on from Firebirds or change his captaincy or If Ravindra can move to CD or ND or Auckland. He will get to bowl lot more on pitches that are slightly more conducive to spin. I was thinking post Jeetan Patel Ravindra will get a reasonable go but our captain has started to think he's the next Jeetan Patel coming out of captial

Ish Sodhi has to find a different gear in his bowling and has to get lot more consistent with lines and length if he has to play test cricket consistently. Left arm spin and leg spin is gold for any team. They will always be placed ahead of right arm finger spinners just because of the angles and variation they provide. I still wouldn't rule Sodhi out, spinners mature a bit late in their careers. Rippon is way too inconsistent to consider both with bat and ball. Probably a better batsman than a bowler.

Ben Sears is definitely a backup for Lockie. I don't see anyone ahead of Sears in terms of pace. Can't ask a bowler to be miser and also bowl quick. It's obvious he's going to leak some runs but short quick bursts sets the game up nicely for other bowlers to pick up wickets.

Nathan Smith is a definite like for like replacement for CDG. The dude bowls at a healthy 130 to 135 k and swings the ball late both ways. Definitely a very good batsman and improving every year. Two more years he'll fill in the void of CDG. Smith is a definitely better bowler than Darryl Mitchell and likely as good a batsman.

nice essay. i have a couple of quibbles but love your passion. i actually think jamieson is the most natural bowling talent of our main five. height, bounce, swing both ways and ever increasing pace. lockie too is a rare gem. i think the main trio are there not because they're once in a generation players but because they're older (career wise - only a few years between all bar wags) and battle hardened, so obviously they're better players.

technically i think conway and young are second only to kane and latham. the boss 2008 - 2013 had a reasonable technique and an incredible eye that allowed him to deal to anyone in world cricket. since his eye issues and hitting 30 some of his flaws have become more pronounced, but obviously he has still been a good batsman and is even on his way to atg odi batsman status #3 only to kohli and abdv in his era (this is the truth and the big 3 media can guzzle my ***).

nathan smith is ages away from international class imo. loved him in under 19s, predicted him to take the new red ball for nz when he swung it both ways with accuracy over 130 clicks at 17 but he has not delivered at all for otago. whoever fixed duffy needs to fix him.

the biggest challenges for nz moving forward are a test standard spinner, getting over our australia capitulation hoodoo and making sure we don't have half the team retire at once. doesn't matter how good your depth is, half a side retiring ruins the next 18 months.

 

[straw man]

@Bahnz made a post about not liking the idea of selecting a batsman-spinner and four specialist quicks at home because it'd hamper the development of local spinners by crushing their incentives, but I don't really think selection should be about encouraging people to bowl spin. It should be about winning.

What's really hampering the development of spinners is the pitches in the Plunket Shield. Tim Johnston should not be averaging over 50 with the ball in the First Class cricket, and I refuse to believe the only reason he is is because he's failed to live up to his potential. Somerville was basically deemed a failed domestic prospect until he popped back up in Australia and did well; then he was suddenly a Test option. That experience should have been sobering for NZC.

I do think 15mm of grass is taking the piss a bit - the spinners wouldn't be in the game after 10 days in those kinds of conditions, let alone 5. But you're right, overall. The pitches in the plunket shield seemed to be heading in the right direction for a few years, with Ajaz, Sodhi and Tastle all featuring prominently in the wickets charts. But in the past few seasons things have started heading back to the bad old days of spinners only featuring when the pitches are so flat that the quick bowlers cbf. Things obviously worse than usual last year with Covid knee-capping the Autumn leg of the PS, but in general things have gotten a bit too trundler-friendly.

I forgot to reply in the thread to Bahnz's comment on this. PEWS original point was regarding playing a frontline spinner in place of a seamer, whereas my reply was focused on a slightly different point - a 'standard' balance for home tests where we've usually played Santner or containing or part-time spinner who can bat.

On that latter point, I can't justify playing a pure spinner in standard NZ conditions that give nothing to spin, not when we have five good seamers to choose from. So the spinner is a fifth bowler who can bat, which is what Santner's been doing at home for a while. My point is that soon enough if not already Jamieson + Philips > CDG + Santner. Philips would need to bowl more to show he's good enough as fifth bowler, but otherwise this gives us four good seamers and longer term should improve the side's batting, assuming Philips gets anywhere near potential. As good as CDG's bowling has been, Jamieson is better. Not suggesting moving CDG on early, but I suspect he won't go much beyond this summer in test cricket anyway.

That side is only applicable for standard NZ pitches that favour swing and seam and give nothing to spin, which is all those pre-Xmas and most of those after too. If, as PEWS and Bahnz suggest, groundstaff around the country can somehow create conditions that give something to spinners on days four and five, to the point where it's worth playing our pure best spinner - currently Ajaz or Somerville - then I'm all for it. It's a bit of a unicorn though, this pitch that does a bit on day 1, then flattens out before breaking up late in the match. I would like it to exist, but we've picked spinners a few times late in the season at home over the last few years, on the theory that the pitch will support it, without any real success. So, it has to be pitches that enable the playing of a front line spinner at home, imo.