**.....UNOFFICIAL.....** ASHES 2007 thread

[Richard]

Comfortably, yes. I don't know how extensively you've seen Lee in his debut season, but I don't think he was all that great, really. He was quick and bowled some excellent deliveries, but I think the changes he has made to his action have made him a much better bowler. He gets more bounce off a length now and is much more accurate, and this summer he was twice the bowler he was when he first appeared on the scene.

I did not see Lee at all in his debut season, and have had little or no discussion with anyone as to the thing...
So I've never known whether it was just people playing him extremely poorly or whether he actually used to be a good bowler.

 

[Richard]

Yes. Gillespie doesn't really bowl for swing so much any more as opposed to seam movement (as we saw the last time he bowled extremely well - in India), and while Gillespie at his best is obviously a far better bowler than Bracken, Bracken is more of a swing specialist. I believe the two times he got swing-friendly conditions in domestic cricket last season he took 7/4 and 6/39.

IMO Gillespie bowled perfectly well in Australia in 2004\05, and was often very unfortunate. I don't know how well he bowled in New Zealand because I didn't read anything, it struck me as an extremely boring series.
I can certainly say that Gillespie, while not using swing as his primary weapon since about 2002\03, was still a very fine bowler of the art in 2003\04 and still pretty good at it in 2004\05.
I don't doubt for a second Bracken is a very fine bowler when the ball can be persuaded to swing... but I can't believe he's enormously better than Gillespie (remembering I haven't seen the real Gillespie for a year now).
How many people have seen Gillespie in Pura Cup cricket in 2005\06? Have any of SA's matches been televised by anyone?

 

[Richard]

Urrrm, he's English, i.e. the home of conventional swing bowling, so of course he's going to get "swinging' conditions more often than Bracken.

I don't know what you've been watching, but conventional-swing in England has been much, much harder to come by since 2001 than it was before.
Mainly due to a change of ball but also due to the ineptness of many bowlers.
Also due to the development of interest in reverse-swing and people trying to get the ball into a condition to use that rather than keep it in the condition to swing conventionally.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

How many people have seen Gillespie in Pura Cup cricket in 2005\06? Have any of SA's matches been televised by anyone?

Not in the longer form, no. I've seen him in a few ING games, and I'd say overall he's been better than the Ashes, but it's difficult to say if he'd still be a class bowler at international level or not.

I think the signs were there during the Australian summer of 04/05 that he was in trouble. It wasn't really a pace issue (although his lack of pace these days did expose him a bit also) so much as the fact that he seemed to lose the nip off the pitch that made him a difficult bowler to play comfortably at any time beforehand. In India he was quite brilliant bowling in the high 130s to low 140s because he was hitting the pitch well and getting movement, which made everyone play him cautiously, and like most bowlers once he got the batsmen on the back foot things went his way. When he was struggling to bowl dangerous deliveries in the summer afterwards his confidence left him, and everything unravelled from there.

From what I've heard and read, Gillespie's worked hard on reaching top pace and getting his seam position right to be able to move the ball around a little off the pitch again. He's changed his action a little (or rather, corrected what he said was a flaw in it), and it's obviously gone fairly well for him in the Pura Cup. I definately noticed in one ING game in particular that he was moving it around a bit and seemed to be bowling hurrying the batsmen, so the signs are good. Stats wise, he's been poor in the OD games, but has a good four day record based mainly around a couple of innings where he's really run through the opposition.

In the light of "picking the best side" he should definately make the SA tour, particularly with McGrath a chance to miss, but the selectors obviously feel his best is behind him and that picking him would be a step backwards instead of forwards. If McGrath misses out he's a chance at selection, but if he misses this tour I doubt he'll ever play for Australia again.

 

[Richard]

Crazy...
Written-off at 31 (is he even 31 yet...?)
What is this cricketing World coming to?
Certainly you'd be hard-pressed not to notice his one-day form has been poor this season, though.
Like I say - I simply can't believe the England tour (ODIs as well as Ashes) wasn't just some extraordinary one-off.
I've never seen such a good bowler bowl such a heap of rubbish as he bowled on that tour... other than when caused by those yips people talk about so much.

 

[tooextracool]

I did not see Lee at all in his debut season, and have had little or no discussion with anyone as to the thing...
So I've never known whether it was just people playing him extremely poorly or whether he actually used to be a good bowler.

i think FaaipDeOiad's description of Lee in 99/00 is quite accurate here, his figures were made to look better by some very incompetent batting especially from the indians in his debut series, and you could hardly expect much better from the WI side of 00/01.

 

[Richard]

No, indeed, but I might have expected a bit better from New Zealand.
In any case - other teams whose batting is not enormously better played him without difficulty since.

 

[aussie]

i dont rate either of them highly either, but hoggard can swing the ball in more conditions than bracken can, and hoggard can also swing the ball both ways.

well isn't it obvious Hoggard has played in more swinging conditons around the world than Bracken, lets see how he goes in SA & more conditions then we can say thats a definite.

 

[aussie]

I think Bracken has the potential to be as good as Hoggard though, if he shows that he can swing the ball relatively often in tests and get results when he does so.

yep i'm with you on this one, the SA series has i said before will show this, if Bracken gets conditions similar to what Hoggard got in Jo'Burg 2 years ago it will be interesting..

 

[aussie]

but if he misses this tour I doubt he'll ever play for Australia again.

hopefull the selectors aren't that stupid.

 

[social]

No, indeed, but I might have expected a bit better from New Zealand.
In any case - other teams whose batting is not enormously better played him without difficulty since.

After the first innings of the first test vs WI this season, Lee was exceptional and his figures, whilst good anyway, do not do justice to the way he bowled.

 

[social]

hopefull the selectors aren't that stupid.

I can understand him being passed over for the ODIs as he's a pretty ordinary fieldsman these days.

However, 18 months ago he was arguably the world's no. 1 pacer and the indications are that he's recovering that form.

As Lehmann said in an Aus newspaper today, an Aus attack of Lee, Gillespie, Kasper ( all on current form) and Warne would take a lot of beating.

 

[howardj]

How many people have seen Gillespie in Pura Cup cricket in 2005\06? Have any of SA's matches been televised by anyone?

I saw him at the 'Gabba on Sunday. The striking thing was the lift he was getting off the pitch. The thing about his bowling in England was his trajectory - the ball was just coming through so 'flat'. By contrast, on Sunday, he looked to have that 'nip' back in his bowling. More broadly, let's not lightly put aside his Test record, and that he has only ever been dropped (in terms of poor performance) once in his 10 year career. On that basis, and his stellar FC returns this summer, I think he's done enough to warrant a re-call next month.

 

[aussie]

I saw him at the 'Gabba on Sunday. The striking thing was the lift he was getting off the pitch. The thing about his bowling in England was his trajectory - the ball was just coming through so 'flat'. By contrast, on Sunday, he looked to have that 'nip' back in his bowling. More broadly, let's not lightly put aside his Test record, and that he has only ever been dropped (in terms of poor performance) once in his 10 year career. On that basis, and his stellar FC returns this summer, I think he's done enough to warrant a re-call next month.

wonderful reading this

 

[Richard]

well isn't it obvious Hoggard has played in more swinging conditons around the world than Bracken, lets see how he goes in SA & more conditions then we can say thats a definite.

Not really, the only time Hoggard has ever played in what I'd call "really swinging conditions" (ie a ball that was going all over everywhere for most bowlers) was New Zealand 2001\02.
As I say - from 2001 onwards in England, swing has been much, much harder to come by than previously for a variety of factors; it's never been easy to get in West Indies, it's never been especially easy in the subcontinent, and recently in South Africa it's been much harder than previously too.

 

[Richard]

After the first innings of the first test vs WI this season, Lee was exceptional and his figures, whilst good anyway, do not do justice to the way he bowled.

No, indeed they don't - more justice would have been done by a higher average.

 

[Richard]

I saw him at the 'Gabba on Sunday. The striking thing was the lift he was getting off the pitch. The thing about his bowling in England was his trajectory - the ball was just coming through so 'flat'. By contrast, on Sunday, he looked to have that 'nip' back in his bowling. More broadly, let's not lightly put aside his Test record, and that he has only ever been dropped (in terms of poor performance) once in his 10 year career. On that basis, and his stellar FC returns this summer, I think he's done enough to warrant a re-call next month.

Err - everso slightly.
I simply don't understand why he wasn't recalled virtually at the first stroke, once it became clear the real Gillespie had resurfaced.
I really can't understand how the England 2005 tour shouldn't be virtually discounted as far as selection is concerned (selection thereafter, obviously), because as I've said before - I've just never seen anything like that - a bowler as good as Gillespie becoming so utterly useless in such a tiny space of time due to something other than "yips" (indeed, I've only ever seen "yips" afflict lesser bowlers, never top Test-level ones).
And once it became obvious that this was merely a short-term blip (he wouldn't be averaging 40, never mind 20, in Pura Cup cricket if he bowled anything like as poorly as he did in England) the recall should IMO have been immediate.

 

[aussie]

Err - everso slightly.
I simply don't understand why he wasn't recalled virtually at the first stroke, once it became clear the real Gillespie had resurfaced.
I really can't understand how the England 2005 tour shouldn't be virtually discounted as far as selection is concerned (selection thereafter, obviously), because as I've said before - I've just never seen anything like that - a bowler as good as Gillespie becoming so utterly useless in such a tiny space of time due to something other than "yips" (indeed, I've only ever seen "yips" afflict lesser bowlers, never top Test-level ones).
And once it became obvious that this was merely a short-term blip (he wouldn't be averaging 40, never mind 20, in Pura Cup cricket if he bowled anything like as poorly as he did in England) the recall should IMO have been immediate.

ah wonderful reading, i wish the australian selectors were like you in this case..

 

[marc71178]

I really can't understand how the England 2005 tour shouldn't be virtually discounted as far as selection is concerned (selection thereafter, obviously), because as I've said before - I've just never seen anything like that - a bowler as good as Gillespie becoming so utterly useless in such a tiny space of time due to something other than "yips" (indeed, I've only ever seen "yips" afflict lesser bowlers, never top Test-level ones).
And once it became obvious that this was merely a short-term blip

3 series is a short term thing?

 

[aussie]

3 series is a short term thing?

did you even see Gillespie bowl againts the NZ & PAK he certainly wasn't useless & flat as he was in the ashes, admitedly if you look at the ashes & look back then he showed signs that he might be in trouble because for the majority of those 3 series he was just accurate & had the odd spell where he looked really dangerous.