Tremors in Indian ODI team !!

[SJS]

I never said that...did I?

Just clarifying.

So you mean it would be insane to send him at number three again ?

 

[Little Master]

I think that Kaif is being wasted and ganguly is not good enough.

The batting order for india should be this:

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Dhoni
Kaif/Dravid
Kaif/Dravid
Yuvraj/Ganguly
Yuvraj/Ganguly

If the first wicket falls after 15 overs than dhoni sahould not come in.

The indian team management must be flexible nad choose the batting order according to the game situation.

 

[V Reddy]

Just clarifying.

So you mean it would be insane to send him at number three again ?

It would be the other way for me. He has always batted in the top-3 in first class cricket limited over games and succeeded there at the first chance he got in intl cricket. The wickets are so flat that even 300 is a par score here and they are so flat that you need not fear about getting allout here and so why not aim at making birdies from the start itself. If Dhoni does well, he is a match winner !!!!!

 

[SJS]

It would be the other way for me. He has always batted in the top-3 in first class cricket limited over games and succeeded there at the first chance he got in intl cricket. The wickets are so flat that even 300 is a par score here and they are so flat that you need not fear about getting allout here and so why not aim at making birdies from the start itself. If Dhoni does well, he is a match winner !!!!!

I know VR.

This guy just made a rsh statement and I was trying to corner him but he just vamoosed

I think Dhoni should and will bat at number three. Either he will be a reasonable success and continue or he will have to fail for a few innings on a trot badly for it to be taken as a flash in the pan. I think he has done himself and, hopefully, the Indian ODI team a great favour. Ganguly does somethings right

 

[SJS]

If the first wicket falls after 15 overs than dhoni sahould not come in.

.

why ??

 

[Sanz]

First its not the innings-runs alone, its the way he played, the confidence and the range of his strokes.

Second, the tremors I am talking about doesnt just pertain to Dhomi's knock, it is Dhoni's knock COMBINED with the failure of all except Sehwag and Dravid from the famous Indian line up.

And I still say let him play for some more games before westart calling him the next Gilchrist. I did watch him in BD series and didn't see much of this confidence. He may be the best thing happened to Indian Cricket since Sehwag, but let's just wait before we hand him the crown....

I did not add tendulkar in this thread because he is opening otherwise, though run out once, he has scored 4 runs in two innings. That makes 52 runs in 8 innings by SCG, SRT, YS and MK. This has to be seen in the context of two of India's biggest wins over Pakistan in history of ODI's between the two countries. These wins have come mainly due to 630 odd runs scored by India in the two games. But take away, sehwag and Dravis and what has the famed Indian line up contributed ??

Are you saying that Tendulkar and other top guns have to perform in every match they play ? Otherwise I dont see your point. Do I need to bring up the batting records of Tendulkar and Ganguly now ? Kaif and Yuvraj come in at 5-7 batting positions and we all saw how Dhoni performed at 5-7. Can some please give us the average ? It is not easy batting there, is it ?? If you dont believe me, Please take a look at Mr. Sehwag's average when he batted @ 5-7 positions.
And I didn't understant the 'Two of India's biggest win' part. Can you please clarify why it was two of India's biggest wins ?

India has ben one catch by Pakistan early in Sehwag's innings away from disaster. Keep aside your patriotic fervour and ask yourself if Sehwag had been held early in both innings, what would India have scored ?

Missed catches are part of the game, it can also be argued that India were one runout and one BOWLED away from disaster (Inzi in kochi & Vizag), Guess who was the bowler both the times. (Hint..It starts with S). On some other threads I read that it was the TOSS that decided the outcome of the match and had Inzi won the TOSS India could have been 0-2 instead of 2-0. The fact that Indian bowlers have bowled well to contain Pakistan's terrific batting line up is another main reason why India has won.

So, the tremors are because Indian batting line up appears to have LOST ITS DEPTH ! It is in this context that I am looking at Dhoni .

If Mongia plays the next match and scores a big one, how can you avoid a shake up?

Kaif and Yuvraj didn't play the Test Series, Did they ?? And Tendulkar scored 250+ in 5 innings with 50+ avg(despite a shocker decision in one innings), I am sure that is a disastrous performance compared to VVS Laxman's whose poor run continued in the 5th series. Lol even ganguly's avg in last 5-6 series at par with Laxman and it tells a lot about Laxman's batting. Ganguly in last 6 series 47.33, 77, 19.66, 48.50, 79.50, 9.60 and Laxman in last 6 series 82.33, 31,17.57, 23.50, 20.50, 41.5

As for Mongia playing and scoring a big one, I dont see that happening. Last time it happened Andy Flower was still playing.Even if DM proves me wrong and scores a big one, IMHO it would be bad for future of Indian Cricket, DM for all his batting talent doesn't have the mental strength to succeed at International level. Once again that is only my opinion.

PS. How can you ask with such incredulity about comparing Kaif or Yuvraj with Dhoni and spwak so casually about Kaif and Yuvraj beng better than Laxman ? The same logic will hold here too.

Is that what it is all about , is that the only reason you brought up this issue .I have never said that Kaif and Yuvraj are better batsmen than Laxman. In ODIs, Kaif and Yuvraj are the heart of this team and they have won many matches for India, they field well, they have batted well whenever they are given a chance to bat up the order.

 

[SJS]

As usual you twist sentences individualy out of context to make individual points, conveniently or ignorantly ignoring the whole. No problem. We differ.

Thanks.

 

[Sanz]

I have always applauded Ganguly for ridding the selection from zonal bias but Ganguly has a big problem about people he favours and those he doesnt.

Harbhajan, Yuvraj and Zaheer top the first list. (Parthiv Patel, the late demented(oops) was another)

Karthik is the leader of the second group.

Ganguly will do a lot as captain to help his favourites and keep the second lot out.

Team selection, bowling changes(Kumble vs Harbhajan too) are a part of it.

Yesterday's insistence in bowling Yuvraj was also a part. Mongia's claim was strong for a place in the third game. Now.......we'll have to see.

I thnink that is very subjective opinion about Ganguly's captaincy. I dont think anybody would prefer Murali Karthik, Sharandeep Singh etc over Harbhajan Singh. Wasn't it the same Dinesh Mongia who was selected to play in the WC, there must be a reason if Ganguly prefers Yuvraj over him. In case of Zaheer, I dont think India has any better alternative. Agarkar, Nehra, Salvi etc are no better.

IMO Ganguly believes in giving fair chance and that's why he likes persisting with players.

 

[Sanz]

As usual you twist sentences individualy out of context to make individual points, conveniently or ignorantly ignoring the whole. No problem. We differ.

Thanks.

Thank You for accusing me of quoting your post.

And with that I put you on my ignore list, I guess I will miss out on your intelligent and knowledgeble posts but it seems you have a knack of posting nonsense once in a while and getting offended by the responses and I am better off without reading/replying to your posts.

Happy posting.

 

[SJS]

And I still say let him play for some more games before westart calling him the next Gilchrist. I did watch him in BD series and didn't see much of this confidence. He may be the best thing happened to Indian Cricket since Sehwag, but let's just wait before we hand him the crown....



Are you saying that Tendulkar and other top guns have to perform in every match they play ? Otherwise I dont see your point. Do I need to bring up the batting records of Tendulkar and Ganguly now ? Kaif and Yuvraj come in at 5-7 batting positions and we all saw how Dhoni performed at 5-7. Can some please give us the average ? It is not easy batting there, is it ?? If you dont believe me, Please take a look at Mr. Sehwag's average when he batted @ 5-7 positions.
And I didn't understant the 'Two of India's biggest win' part. Can you please clarify why it was two of India's biggest wins ?



Missed catches are part of the game, it can also be argued that India were one runout and one BOWLED away from disaster (Inzi in kochi & Vizag), Guess who was the bowler both the times. (Hint..It starts with S). On some other threads I read that it was the TOSS that decided the outcome of the match and had Inzi won the TOSS India could have been 0-2 instead of 2-0. The fact that Indian bowlers have bowled well to contain Pakistan's terrific batting line up is another main reason why India has won.



Kaif and Yuvraj didn't play the Test Series, Did they ?? And Tendulkar scored 250+ in 5 innings with 50+ avg(despite a shocker decision in one innings), I am sure that is a disastrous performance compared to VVS Laxman's whose poor run continued in the 5th series. Lol even ganguly's avg in last 5-6 series at par with Laxman and it tells a lot about Laxman's batting. Ganguly in last 6 series 47.33, 77, 19.66, 48.50, 79.50, 9.60 and Laxman in last 6 series 82.33, 31,17.57, 23.50, 20.50, 41.5

As for Mongia playing and scoring a big one, I dont see that happening. Last time it happened Andy Flower was still playing.Even if DM proves me wrong and scores a big one, IMHO it would be bad for future of Indian Cricket, DM for all his batting talent doesn't have the mental strength to succeed at International level. Once again that is only my opinion.



Is that what it is all about , is that the only reason you brought up this issue .I have never said that Kaif and Yuvraj are better batsmen than Laxman. In ODIs, Kaif and Yuvraj are the heart of this team and they have won many matches for India, they field well, they have batted well whenever they are given a chance to bat up the order.

NO. I am not offended by any response or criticism. I will admit mistakes and this forum is full of posts from me where I have done so. In other places, I will agree that I and the other poster have a difference of opinion which is fine and not abnormal. No Sanz, I have no problem with a response because it disagrees OR because it is critical of what I say.

BUT, I do get irritated by a couple of things. First if people get personal(you havent done that, I am just stating it) and two if people keep repeating themselves without understanding what I have said before. This includes quoting individual sentence and responding to it, which can give a totally different picture than answering what the post is saying as a whole.

Nevertheless, I will respond to your post in detail to clarify what I have said above.

1. The spirit of my original post
My original thread starter has nothing to do with my evaluating Dhoni as a better batsman than either Kaif or Yuvraj, let alone worlds leading one day players like Ganguly or Tendulkar. It was to show that the Indian middle order has not been contributing and with the off-with-his-head attitude of the media and the Indian public towards the players who have done so much for Indian cricket, Sachin, Ganguly, Laxman today and others in the past, that even Kaif anf Yuvraj would be on notice if this youngster was to continue with similar exploits and they continued to fail. Thats why I used the words tremor. I was thinking of an English equivalent of the Hindi word HULCHUL (which means stirring) but wasnt able to think of a closer word at that time.

2. Laxman : My starting of this thread has nothing to do with Laxman. Your latching on to that bit is very similar to a Pakistani poster hinting at opposition to Lara vs Anwar post being because Anwar was a Pakistani and those opposing were Indians, People who read such motives into other peoples words when none are intended , mostly expose their own biases rather anything else.

My quoting of Laxman was only to show that if a player like Laxman can be castigated because of failures and youngsters promoted in his place by the general public and media, it is not out of the bounds of possibility for Kaif and Yuvraj to be in Laxman's predicament if they continued to fail.

One has to see the way some people, not just on this forum but on mainstream media, are writing about Tendulkar(read today's Indian Express) to realise that no pedestal is high enough for determined Indian fans when they want to pull down the icons and slipper them a la Saddam Hussain. Kaif and Yuvraj are yet to reach those heights so they are surely vulnerable.

Let Today's GOD, Virendra Sehwag, throw away a few test matches, with cross batted strokes and let India lose those series to Pakistan for good measure and see what we do to Sehwag. When a nation is so besotted with success and not with an understanding of the game and its intricasies, this is what will always result.

It wasnt very long ago that this very public was castigating Dravid and insisting that he be dropped from the one day game. If you dont remember, I can fish out articles on the subject. Imagine what we would have lost. It is the possibility that such reactions could soon include Kaif and Yuvraj unless they started scoring that I was cautioning against.

3. To answer your BITS & PIECES :
a) And I still say let him play for some more games before westart calling him the next Gilchrist. I did watch him in BD series and didn't see much of this confidence. He may be the best thing happened to Indian Cricket since Sehwag, but let's just wait before we hand him the crown....

I never called him Gilchrist and I talked of his confidence in this innings and not in Bangladesh or in the rest of his career.(in fact I was critical and called it over confidence) I did not put any crown on his head.

Here is all I said about him

- Here is a man, who will be fighting to bat above Yuvraj and Kaif in the batting order.(YES HE WILL IF HE KEEPS DOING WELL BUT IN THE SIDE FOR THE NEXT MATCH I HAD PUT HIM AT NUMBER SEVEN AND YUVRAJ AT NUMBER FOUR !! KAIF WOULD HAVE BEEN AT FIVE IF I HAD NOT REPLACED HIM WITH MONGIA WHOIS AT THAT POSITION !! SO WHATS THE ISSUE ??)

- He was amazing(WASNT HE?)

- He is a bit rough and over confident](NEGATIVE)

- he playes with a very straight bat and has tremendous power and plays all round the wicket(POSITIVE & FACTUAL)

- I am a bit worried that he is a bit of a "jat"(NEGATIVE)

- He may have problem in that he may believe that he is Viv Richards(NEGATIVE)

- Otherwise this is great for Indian cricket(ISNT IT?)
- Fantastic knock. (WASNT IT?)

- First chance at 126 (FACTIUAL)


At this stage you responded with (see what you said and compare with what went before) :-

Hahaha One innings and he has caused tremors ? Didn't see this coming from you SJS. Let him play for a while before we can even consider him at par with Kaif, Yuvraj.

IMO Indian team should have exactly same composition, cant say the same about the batting order though I dont think he is a good No. 3 and that position should go to Kaif/Dravid.

I replied to all this. Briefly
- that it wasnt the innings and runs but the way he played
- that it wasnt just about Dhoni but the failure of Indian bating bar Sehwag and Dravid
(I gave stats towards this)
- that the FAMOUS DEPTH was not evident in Indian batting
- that in so many games in this series we have been one catch(off Sehwag's bat) away from disatser.
- that if Mongia played the next game(he can instead of Kaif) and scored runs wouldnt the shake up have arrived. Just to emphasis this means that already with Laxman out because Yuvraj and Kaif are available, if Dhoni and Mongia also score and Yuvraj fails again wouldnt there be a shake up. Nothing wrong in this scenario either. It would be welcome I think for a team and supporters who have been shouting themselves hoarse for giving a chance to those outside the main team.
- And finally Laxman : I mentioned it as a Post Script to show that the gap , in stature between Dhoni and Kaif appears large but that between Laxman and Kaif is not small either. This was not to support Laxman's candidature for the ODI team but to emphasise that we can either go by performance or runs in recent games or past reputation, we cant use different criteria for different people at different times.

You may disagree with this but you have no business to impute motives to my bringing this argument.

Want me to go on ? I can. It will take some more time but I can do it if you insist.

 

[SJS]

Javed goes gaga over Dhoni.

This boy won points on all counts: technique and temperament; daring and fitness. He withstood some sharp tongue-lashing from Pakistan bowlers and then unfolded a searing range of strokeplay.

It was audacious yet judicious; his willingness to hit was matched in equal by his desire to stay long at the crease.

And let's not forget his keeping, which was equally brilliant: the leg-side catch; the near stumpings of Shoaib Malik and Yousuf Youhana; the low catch of Rana Naved-ul Hasan. India has unearthed a serious talent who would add balance and energy to the side.

 

[Jono]

I dont get it...why should Kaif bat at no.3 or 4 when we got Dravid at 3...sending Kaif ahead of Rahul is insane...maybe just maybe Kaif can bat at 4 but then again Saurav wont let this happen...

Because Dravid has shown in the last couple of years that in ODIs he no longer requires time to build an innings like say Laxman does, and similarly Kaif is most used to.

Examples:

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/OD_TOURNEYS/TVS/SCORECARDS/IND_NZ_TVS_ODI9_15NOV2003.html (Dravid batting at 5)
http://aus.cricinfo.com/link_to_dat...DS/POOL-A/IND_PAK_WC2003_ODI36_01MAR2003.html (Batting at 5 again)
http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/IND_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/IND_PAK_ODI4_21MAR2004.html (Dravid batting at 5, Kaif batting at 7 whilst getting plenty of time at the crease)

How is Kaif batting ahead of Dravid insane yet Ganguly and Dhoni batting ahead isn't? Dhoni is clearly more aggressive, yet Kaif has a much more conservative game suited to the middle overs. The last game against Pakistan Dravid didn't bat 1-4, so I don't see how my suggestion is much difference. I'm just being logical and replacing Kaif and putting him at 3 instead of Ganguly, and Dravid at 4 instead of Dhoni. Ganguly can slip to 5, or if he is stubborn at batting at 3, just put Kaif to 4, Dravid to 5 etc. as Dravid has proven time and time again that he can bat well at 5 whether he has 10 overs to play or 40 overs to play. Dravid can succeed at 5-6, whereas Kaif's best knocks when he is at 7 have come when he's been at the crease for many overs, and built his innings eventually scoring at or over a run a ball. He's that type of player, and is currently being severely underused in the Indian team.

If one player can do two things well (Dravid) yet the other player can only do one well (Kaif), what is the most efficient outcome nikhil?

 

[SJS]

India's over dependence on few(two really)

Team India’s two few good men
FAISAL SHARIFF

NEW DELHI, APRIL 7: India’s runaway 2-0 lead in the six-match one-day series against Pakistan has been built largely on the contributions of Virender Sehwag and Rahul Dravid — and, latterly, the pyrotechnics of MS Dhoni.

That’s the good news. The bad news, obviously, is the flip side: the other frontline batsman are yet to perform.
Between them, Tendulkar and Ganguly have scored 23,426 runs in ODIs; in the two matches of this current series, they’ve together scored 15 runs.

Yuvraj and Kaif, too, are on a sticky wicket; they’ve together scored just 38 runs in the two matches.

How important is Sehwag? In the last five ODIs, he’s scored 21 pc of the team’s total runs; on the one occasion he was out for a duck, against Bangladesh, India lost the match. In 12 previous ODI innings, when he had just one substantial knock — a half-century against Sri Lanka — the team lost seven matches, every one-day tournament and every series.

But even Sehwag’s contribution pales against Dravid’s. Even when Sehwag was struggling with the bat before his current rich vein of form, Dravid had been scoring consistently for India. In the last 23 matches he has scored 904 runs at an average of 47.5 — 15.9 pc of the team’s total. In fact, in the last 10 ODIs, Dravid has had an astonishing run with five 50s and a hundred and 22 pc of the team’s total runs.

The others? Even though each player has got a fifty to show through this lean phase in ODIs, which began with the Asia Cup in July 2004, a collective effort has been elusive. The same team that had a potential match-winner for every situation is today too dependent on Sehwag and Dravid to fire.

 

[Arjun]

Yuvraj and Kaif, too, are on a sticky wicket; they’ve together scored just 38 runs in the two matches.

Yuvraj and Kaif have got in too late. In some of their best innings, they have started from the middle overs, then built innings and partnerships gradually, then started attacking when well set. They have hardly got set in this series. Mohammed Kaif seems a better bet at 3 or 4, since he struggled to get runs at seven, then came a 50, then the promotion, and yet another 50.

 

[SJS]

Expect a Pakistan counter-attack
S Rajesh in Jamshedpur

Virender Sehwag and Rahul Dravid have been consistency personified so far, but the rest of the line-up – apart from Dhoni, of course – has been virtually non-existent: Sachin Tendulkar, Sourav Ganguly, Yuvraj Singh and Mohammad Kaif have together contributed 53 runs in eight innings. Those are damning statistics, and numbers which are in urgent need of correction.

 

[Jono]

That's not exactly breaking news SJS. Quoting that guy gives as much credibility to your argument than quoting a 12 year old boy who says the same thing.

 

[SJS]

Yuvraj and Kaif have got in too late. In some of their best innings, they have started from the middle overs, then built innings and partnerships gradually, then started attacking when well set. .

Well thats not exactly correct.

In the first match Yuvraj went in with only 35 overs bowled.India were 205 for 3 and Dravid was batting at the other end. This was the time, India looked set to go 320 plus. But Yuvraj and Dravids partnership lasted 33 balls and added 36 runs. Of this Yuvraj played 26 and scored only 16 runs !!! W@hen he got out it was still the 41st over in progress !!

Kaif came in at this stage He and Dravid added another 14 runs in 24 deliveries. At this time Dravid was really struggling with dehydration but Kaif who was fresh scored 7 runs in 12 deliveries and got out with five overs still left.

India fell at least 40 short of what appeared likely because of these two and would have done worse but for some merry slogging in the very last over by the tail enders.

Even in the second match Balaji and Zaheer scored more than them and they came latter.

Its not as if Kaif got out slogging in an attempt to score fast. He was beaten by an incoming delivery and trapped leg before.

Of course it can happen to anyone and it is not the end of the world for either of these talented youngsters but then this thread was never meant to just show them in poor light as "supporters" of these two seem to be continuously implying.

This is just to show that except Sehwag and Dravid(and in the 2nd game Dhoni) the Indian batsmen have not been scoring. NONE OF THEM. This is a warning sign for India and we should hope and pray that other batsmen will also score tomorrow because the law of averages will catch up with Sehwag and Dravid.

 

[SJS]

That's not exactly breaking news SJS. Quoting that guy gives as much credibility to your argument than quoting a 12 year old boy who says the same thing.

I am not quoting him to get credibility for myself. I dont need it.

I just quoted these two articles from Indian Express to show that every one is noticing that the Indian team has been relying too much of late on two batsmen and this is fraught with danger.

Also, that those who are writing this are not doing it to pull down Yuvraj or Kaif but making an observation just as I did.

Thats all the point I am making.

 

[Jono]

I just find it hilarious that people were calling for Sehwag's head, or at the least heavily criticising him, last year for his lacklustre performance in ODIs. Now he's finally carried over his test form to the ODI game, and he's suddenly our hero in ODIs (which isn't exactly false, but his poor performances are easily forgotten), whilst Kaif, who only a few months ago was saving us (or coming close to) from embarassment against Bangladesh, and after two matches he's under pressure.

I acknowledge your point that the first two ODIs, the other batsman haven't performed well. But Sehwag didn't perform well at all for a whole year. Now he's in stunning form. Obviously players' form goes in cycles, some are just larger than others. Let's not get too carried away here.

 

[SJS]

I just find it hilarious that people were calling for Sehwag's head, or at the least heavily criticising him, last year for his lacklustre performance in ODIs. Now he's finally carried over his test form to the ODI game, and he's suddenly our hero in ODIs (which isn't exactly false, but his poor performances are easily forgotten), whilst Kaif, who only a few months ago was saving us (or coming close to) from embarassment against Bangladesh, and after two matches he's under pressure.

I acknowledge your point that the first two ODIs, the other batsman haven't performed well. But Sehwag didn't perform well at all for a whole year. Now he's in stunning form. Obviously players' form goes in cycles, some are just larger than others. Let's not get too carried away here.

You are the one who is getting carried away

I am not calling Sehwag my HERO. On the contrary, I am saying he will fail !

In fact if you go back in this thread, you willl find I have written that India is lucky Sehwag was dropped early twice in Kochi. So I am not calling him God. I am saying that he WILL fail. As will Dravid. What will we do then if none of the other batsmen have runse under their belt.

Honestly I dont understand how this is being made out as a for this player or against another player argument. It is nothing of the sort. But just like those who turn any thing when one talks of India vs Pakistan into a nationalistics debate and impute motives to those making the most objective statements, in this case also people are only exposing there own firmly ingrained biases rather than finding those of others.