Top 7 Spinners

[grecian]

Nah look, there really is daylight.

It's unlikely he could end up with a much worse career outside of the sub cont than Swann given the latter's rank averageness outside the sub continent himself.

Seeing as though Ajmal is so so so much better than him in sub continental type conditions, I'm more than happy to call it.

Ajmal is by far the best of a generally average bunch.

Not really sure where you get Swann's abjectness outside of the s-c, had an average series against Oz, but has been fairly solid elsewhere. Sorry for the use of statsguru.

Would suggest if Ajmal played most of his matches in England, they'd have similar records.

 

[cnerd123]

As a disclaimer, it must be kept in mind I have not watched a lot of cricket. Most of my viewing comes from around 1990s to current day.

With that said, of all the traditional offspinners I've seen, Swann is only behind Saqlain Mushtaq.

By traditional offspin, I mean non-Murali (he was a freak), and not the fast/flat offspin style, or guys like Narine/Mendis. I mean the kind of offspinner who uses tools like flight, changes in pace and spin, drift and dip to beat batsmen. Guys like Vettori, Hauritz, Ojha, Lyon, etc. Saqlain was a beautiful bowler of that style early in his career, really amazing. Wonderful to watch. Slightly dodgy action, yes, and a bit unusual, but still a very good bowler of that style. And he had the doosra too, which made him such an incredible bowler. One of the bowlers who inspired me to bowl spin, along with Warne.

After him, I would rate Swann as the best exponent I have viewed of these classical skills. He has almost all the tools except the doosra, and while he does lack a bit of the 'magic' or the kind of zip that Mushtaq used to have, he is pretty close to it, and when he's bowling well he is almost the epitome of beautiful, brilliant offspin.

Harbhajan early in his career was too, tbh, but my fondness for him has faded a lot given how bad he has been as a Test bowler since Kumble retired. He was so good earlier, especially in that brief period where he had the doosra and was still flighting and spinning the ball. Had a lot of comparison with Mushtaq.

Having said that...I can see where Benchmark is coming from when he says Swann really isn't as amazing as we make him out to be...but I don't put that down to him not being as skilful as we say he is. My theory (or belief) is that classical offspin, even when bowled to the highest degree it can be bowled, will still be less of a wicket-taking threat than legspin, pace or swing bowling at their finest. Swann isn't limited by his skills, per say, but by the style he bowls. If he had a doosra/carrom ball/something similar, he would be more dangerous.

Having said all that, I haven't seen the likes of Laker, Gibbs, Verity, Mallett or Erappali Prassana bowl. I have only seen fleeting clips of Bedi. So I don't have much to compare against.

Ajmal doesn't fit in this category of 'classical offspin' because he does bowl a bit faster and flatter, and still gets sharp turns, and has a wicked doosra. His bowling style is less about flighting it up outside off, making the batsman drive against the turn, and trying to get through the gap between bat an pad, but more about bowling it quick and sharp-spinning in line with the stumps/just outside off, and get the batsman guessing about which way it will turn or how much it will turn. It's still wonderful to watch, but different.

Watching Ajmal and Swann, I can't help feel Ajmal is more of a threat. He seems more like a Murali...able to beat a batsmen off the pitch instead of in the air. Maybe because no batsman has worked out a way to play him safely yet, he's been effective. For Swann batsmen already know they need to use their feet decisively, and if they do he can be neutered, but he's such a smart and skilful bowler that he can work around that and still deceive and trick the batsman. Swann is such a clever spinner. I don't think Ajmal has had to deal with such a challenge yet, and if faced with a flat track that he can't get a lot of spin off, he still works out ways to beat the batsmen off the pitch. Mixing the ones that turn slightly with the one that doesn't spin at all, or holds it's line. Varying his pace a bit. Swann in the same scenario would go for beating the batsman in the air, use drift, dip and flight to do so.

Different bowlers they are, but Ajmal has seemed more effective to me by quite a distance. And it's perhaps just because of they style he bowls, rather than him being a far more skilful or intelligent bowler than Swann.

But that's just my 2 cents. Haven't seen them both excessively either tbh, so i could just be completely wrong.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Nah look, there really is daylight.

It's unlikely he could end up with a much worse career outside of the sub cont than Swann given the latter's rank averageness outside the sub continent himself.

Seeing as though Ajmal is so so so much better than him in sub continental type conditions, I'm more than happy to call it.

Ajmal is by far the best of a generally average bunch.

Daylight between Swann and Lyon as well. Lyon is cod ordinary, can't even take wickets on day 5 pitches when the ball is turning.

 

[L Trumper]

Nah look, there really is daylight.

It's unlikely he could end up with a much worse career outside of the sub cont than Swann given the latter's rank averageness outside the sub continent himself.

Seeing as though Ajmal is so so so much better than him in sub continental type conditions, I'm more than happy to call it.

Ajmal is by far the best of a generally average bunch.

Apart from AUS, he is good everywhere else.

 

[MW1304]

Daylight between Swann and Lyon as well. Lyon is cod ordinary, can't even take wickets on day 5 pitches when the ball is turning.

Okay I don't agree with Benchy but don't go too far the other way. Lyon is 25 but has the experience of someone even younger. He already has pretty good control and flights it nicely, whilst getting reasonable turn. With those tools he just needs to refine them before he's a dangerous spinner, not far off the standard of Swann. He's not close now though tbh, he doesn't have the years of county grind that Swann has, or the fitness to bowl long spells, but considering his age and the decent start he's managed in Tests so far, it would be stupid to write him off. He could break through within the next couple of years imo.

I realise there's an element of troll in your post but still, don't set yourself up for a taste.

 

[morgieb]

I think the problem with Lyon is too often when matches are starting to run out of time he rushes his overs so he can get more in, rather than thinking it through properly. With more experience he'll be better at that IMO.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Out of curiosity how do Swann, Ajmal and Lyon compare with regards to wickets taken relative to batting average or batting position. Initial suspicions are that Swann takes more high order wickets and doesn't really go through lower order bats like those two, but it's meaningless without the stats.

Oh and anyone who rates Lyon in the same league as Swann needs their head examined. Utterly laughable.

 

[Jono]

Lyon was very disappointing on day 5 Hobart. Hopefully he learns from that and gets better with experience. I do think we sometimes forget how n00b he is.

Swann the better bowler right now though. Will be interesting to see how Lyon goes in India.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

It's hard to tell if Lyon looks good because he actually has serious potential or if he's just one of those guys who manages to look much better than he really is.

 

[chaminda_00]

Looks like the spin rating by most people are very subjective based on what people have seen of the bowlers. Looks like Swann under rated a tad due to one poor/average series in Australia. There is nothing wrong with his overall record away from sub continent.

Saeed Ajmal overall record away from the sub continent isn't that bad either, but he has had limited exposure away from the sub continent during his hot spell. The same can be said about Herath, but his 5-fers in Australia and South Africa should indicate he can bowl well away from the sub continent.

Lyon I don't rate at all. I just don't think he has enough tricks in the bag to become a front line spin bowler. Yes he is young, but I can see teams just being able to predict him and just bat him out. I rather have the likes of Randiv, Ojha, Ashwin, Narine or Gazi over him.

 

[hendrix]

Oh and anyone who rates Lyon in the same league as Swann needs their head examined. Utterly laughable.

Noone is saying he's as good as swann is now, but he's twice the bowler swann was at his age.

He needs to learn a few more tricks and he'll be very good.

I don't think Swann is that amazing, btw. Just a good, classical offspinner. Very good at what he does, but it's not unfeasible that Lyon could reach his level in a few years.

Lyon was very disappointing on day 5 Hobart.

I understand that people are expecting the spinner to take wickets on the day 5 wicket, but if you look at the match situation I wasn't disappointed by his performance.

Stonewalling most spinners on that pitch would have been (relatively) easy on that wicket. He did his job IMO.

 

[greg]

Noone is saying he's as good as swann is now, but he's twice the bowler swann was at his age.

Very few people could really say how good Swann was at Lyon's age. He got picked for the tour of South Africa in 2000 (age 20/21), was diagnosed with "attitude problems" and was never given another chance until we finally managed to get rid of Fletcher. At which point he came in and was an instant success.

I understand that people are expecting the spinner to take wickets on the day 5 wicket, but if you look at the match situation I wasn't disappointed by his performance.

Stonewalling most spinners on that pitch would have been (relatively) easy on that wicket. He did his job IMO.

With the talk about Swann "outside the subcontinent". Stats are pretty meaningless in general. What every England fan will tell you is that when given a job to win a match on a fourth/fifth day pitch Swann has very rarely failed to deliver. (this has not always been the case with Monty, for example, who paradoxically has often been far more effective in the first innings). He was given little to work with in Australia. But given a fifth day at Adelaide, he finished the job as required.