Time for a reassessment of Indian quicks?

[silentstriker]

Following Indian test bowlers have taken 10 wickets for India who have debuted since 2003: L Balaji, IK Pathan, RP Singh, S Sreesanth, MM Patel, I Sharma, P Kumar, UT Yadav, VR Aaron, B Kumar, Mohammad Shami. Want to go back since 1990? Add AS Wassan, J Srinath, BKV Parad, A Kuruvilla, A Agarkar, A Nehra, Z Khan

It's quite amazing. The ratio of the combined hype of these bowlers compared to their combined output is mindboggling.

 

[cnerd123]

Just gonna link to a thread where a similar topic was discussed:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...ween-pakistani-indian-great-pace-bowlers.html


I think an additional factor not discussed in that thread is that since we have such poor pitches and such a bad domestic schedule, not only do we have a lack of fast bowlers, but we have a lack of batsman who are comfortable facing fast bowlers. As such anytime someone new with a bit of pace pops up - Munaf, Shami, Yadav, Aaron - they get hyped up very quickly and also tend to perform pretty well in Ranji against these batsmen who just aren't used to their pace. Therefore when they arrive at the Test team they are very raw and inconsistent - usually their pace is enough to pluck out a few wickets in domestic cricket, but in international cricket where you need consistency and some other skills they just turn to fodder.

We've developed a lot of green swinging/seaming wickets in India, and as such we get the likes of Bhuvi, Praveen and Pankaj coming up the ranks and we have done well in overseas tests on grasstops. Guys like Dhawan and Vijay can handle swing pretty well. It's when there is pace and bounce that the team as a whole struggles.

Only way to rectify this is fix the domestic structure to allow for more time between games, produce pitches with pace and bounce to encourage bowlers to bowl quickly and accurately, and perhaps allow Ranji sides to sign overseas players. Also hold more IPLs in South Africa, or send these IPL teams to play exhibition and tournament matches overseas. The simple experience of batting and bowling on quick bouncy decks would be worth a lot to the youngsters in domestic cricket, regardless of which format it is in.

 

[Johnners]

Following Indian test bowlers have taken 10 wickets for India who have debuted since 2003: L Balaji, IK Pathan, RP Singh, S Sreesanth, MM Patel, I Sharma, P Kumar, UT Yadav, VR Aaron, B Kumar, Mohammad Shami. Want to go back since 1990? Add AS Wassan, J Srinath, BKV Parad, A Kuruvilla, A Agarkar, A Nehra, Z Khan

It's quite amazing. The ratio of the combined hype of these bowlers compared to their combined output is mindboggling.

Bring back Kapil Dev?

 

[anil1405]

Only way to rectify this is fix the domestic structure to allow for more time between games, produce pitches with pace and bounce to encourage bowlers to bowl quickly and accurately, and perhaps allow Ranji sides to sign overseas players. Also hold more IPLs in South Africa, or send these IPL teams to play exhibition and tournament matches overseas. The simple experience of batting and bowling on quick bouncy decks would be worth a lot to the youngsters in domestic cricket, regardless of which format it is in.

Lovely suggestion but unfortunately this would be the last thing on BCCI's agenda. On second thought, this wouldn't even be on the agenda.

Perhaps the best pitch I have seen for a domestic game in India was about 5 years back in a Ranji final in Mysore. The pitch had something in it for everyone and was giving the fast bowlers a slightly better advantage. And guess what, it turned out to be one of THE best games ever played in domestic circuit in India. Batsmen had to earn their runs on this pitch. Not sure if I had seen a pitch like this again after that.

This is the game: Final: Karnataka v Mumbai at Mysore, Jan 11-14, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[cnerd123]

Agarkar WAG

 

[Hurricane]

Following Indian test bowlers have taken 10 wickets for India who have debuted since 2003: L Balaji, IK Pathan, RP Singh, S Sreesanth, MM Patel, I Sharma, P Kumar, UT Yadav, VR Aaron, B Kumar, Mohammad Shami. Want to go back since 1990? Add AS Wassan, J Srinath, BKV Parad, A Kuruvilla, A Agarkar, A Nehra, Z Khan

It's quite amazing. The ratio of the combined hype of these bowlers compared to their combined output is mindboggling.

I remember hype about RP Singh. Massive Hype about Ishant with Ponting being sought out for his opinion on him. And more recently Shami was really heralded. There were cricinfo features on his former coaches.

 

[cnerd123]

Problem is all these guys actually really looked very good for a brief moment.

Apart from not really producing fast bowlers, we tend to ruin the few who do show a lot of potential. Some combination of overworking them, poor coaching/guidance, and possibly killing their motivation and desire. We break them down mentally and physically, lavish them with riches and attention, and fail to fully harness their potential. This leaves us with broken fast bowlers who are quite wealthy and popular yet have absolutely dire Test records.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There's a problem with the coaching surely. So many pacers have come and gone and honestly a lot of them did have genuine talent. Sreesanth imo had terrific potential. Had decent pace, and his seam presentation was to die for. For a fast bowler, those two things are a lot to work with and if he had a brain and a good coach there was no reason why he couldn't have had an excellent career.

I hope people don't get revisionist on Shami and say he was only good on his debut. He looked very threatening when Dhoni used him properly in SA, and was impressive in NZ too. Predictably after a few months of showing promise he's joined the crapheap.

 

[Jono]

They're dumb. That's actually it. When Zaheer was world class it is because he was skilled and smart. We produce dumb fast bowlers. To me that's coaching and training, not meat.

 

[morgieb]

There's a problem with the coaching surely. So many pacers have come and gone and honestly a lot of them did have genuine talent. Sreesanth imo had terrific potential. Had decent pace, and his seam presentation was to die for. For a fast bowler, those two things are a lot to work with and if he had a brain and a good coach there was no reason why he couldn't have had an excellent career.

I hope people don't get revisionist on Shami and say he was only good on his debut. He looked very threatening when Dhoni used him properly in SA, and was impressive in NZ too. Predictably after a few months of showing promise he's joined the crapheap.

Yeah, it's crazy the number of recent Indian quicks that started off well but turned to ****. Happened to Munaf, happened to Sreesanth, happened to Ishant. There's probably others (Pathan?) too.

 

[Jono]

Australia, England and south Africa would have turned Shami and sreesanth, who had good pace and ability to move the ball, into solid international bowlers.

 

[Contra]

Umesh and Bhuvi are quality though. Umesh in particular got injured at the wrong time, he was doing fine prior to his injury and then by the time he came back some other bowlers overtook him.

 

[Burgey]

You look at a bloke like Sharma who showed potential on his first your here and then went and played a **** load of 50 and 20 over cricket. He should have been largely kept away from it until he'd matured and consistently found a good test match bowling length. Instead he played so much LO cricket at a young age that his default length which was always ok the shortish side for tests was fostered because it was negative and run saving. Compare that to some of the young quicks from other countries who are encouraged to bowl full and risk being driven in order to get batsmen driving at them.

 

[Teja.]

I think Praveen Kumar is the best long form pacer we've produced after Kapil and he was actually awesome outcome-wise (and not just looked good) in the 6 tests he played. It's a serious mystery what the deal with him is. Was destroying stumps in FC a week ago or so.

He was incredibly smart and skilled too. A real workhorse. Aaron isn't good enough to tie his shoelaces yet is in the team.

 

[Debris]

Surprised no-one has posted this. India's response to any fast bowling talent they might come across...

 

[Top_Cat]

Following Indian test bowlers have taken 10 wickets for India who have debuted since 2003: L Balaji, IK Pathan, RP Singh, S Sreesanth, MM Patel, I Sharma, P Kumar, UT Yadav, VR Aaron, B Kumar, Mohammad Shami. Want to go back since 1990? Add AS Wassan, J Srinath, BKV Parad, A Kuruvilla, A Agarkar, A Nehra, Z Khan

It's quite amazing. The ratio of the combined hype of these bowlers compared to their combined output is mindboggling.

Thing is, most of those guys had or have a lot of talent. They only fell over once they made the Test side and were expected to be the One True fast Bowler India had always been looking for. Once they play for a while and discover Test cricket is hard and/or get injured, they're turfed or at best, tainted. Australia has treated their spinners the same way since Benaud but it doesn't hurt them as much because you only need one spinner in a side whereas you have to juggle 2 or 3 quicks in an average side. Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown, worse when it's multiplied by 2 or 3.

Australia treats its pace bowlers with care and patience, India does that with her spinners. It's cultural more than domestic pitches, for mine (obviously plays a role, though).

 

[silentstriker]

They're dumb. That's actually it. When Zaheer was world class it is because he was skilled and smart. We produce dumb fast bowlers. To me that's coaching and training, not meat.

Zaheer didn't get good until he went to Worcestershire. He said as much - the coaching, physios, and just the general professionalism of that setup combined with the opportunity to bowl a LOT is what (he says) changed him as a bowler.

 

[Niall]

Not the first person to say it but when you consider their wealth and how poor Lanka are compared, surely throwing some money at Vaas or even Bond would be a good idea? Both have done wonders with Lanka and NZ.

 

[Furball]

They're dumb. That's actually it. When Zaheer was world class it is because he was skilled and smart. We produce dumb fast bowlers. To me that's coaching and training, not meat.

It's a shame Zaheer wasn't smart enough to stay away from the pies.

 

[Jono]

Many a smart man has fallen prey to the temptation of the pies.