Time Changes Perception

[AndrewB]

One change of perception which has come up on the forum before: if we were naming an England XI for 1946-1980 or so, Barrington would probably be the first middle-order batsman picked. In the 1980s, he'd have been behind Compton and May, and quite possible behind at least some of Dexter, Cowdrey, (Bill) Edrich and Graveney.

Another player whose reputation I think is higher now than it was a decade or so after he retired is Alan Davidson. Conversely, ISTR retrospective articles in late-80s cricket magazines suggesting that Lindwall was the greatest ever fast bowler.

Going back earlier, there are players like Woolley and Constantine whose overall averages don't look that impressive now, but who were clearly rated very highly by people who saw them play.

 

[trundler]

Lindwall is stupidly underrated on here

 

[Flem274*]

I think it's natural as we cool off on players to look at them in a different light, plus as a selector 50 years removed trying to select the team to win it's hard to turn down raw efficiency (Barrington).

I think if you're caught suggesting Sobers, Imran or whoever isn't top class though then you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it.

 

[Flem274*]

Another player whose reputation I think is higher now than it was a decade or so after he retired is Alan Davidson. Conversely, ISTR retrospective articles in late-80s cricket magazines suggesting that Lindwall was the greatest ever fast bowler.

interesting. I still think of him as a bit forgotten. Lillee and the colour of the 70s and 80s in general casts a long shadow nowadays. I like Davo because he's a rare top class left arm pace bowling allrounder. He, McGrath and Lillee make a fantastic trio.

edit - i didn't know lindwall could bat so well. i knew he could bat, but not 2 test hundreds bat. what a package.

 

[Engle]

Botham broke free the shackles of English discipline and process heavy coaching methods that stressed on putting your right foot here and your left arm there.

Kapil did so even more with Indian cricket with a joie de vivre that was opposite their constraining cricket. When he breached 400 Test wickets, it was 4 times as many wickets as their next best pacer Ghavri who could not scale 100 wickets. India searched the length and breadth of their country for a pacer finally produced one who went on to become the leading world Test wicket taker at the time.

Perceptions and details that will be lost or diminished with the passage of time.

 

[vcs]

interesting. I still think of him as a bit forgotten. Lillee and the colour of the 70s and 80s in general casts a long shadow nowadays. I like Davo because he's a rare top class left arm pace bowling allrounder. He, McGrath and Lillee make a fantastic trio.

edit - i didn't know lindwall could bat so well. i knew he could bat, but not 2 test hundreds bat. what a package.

Harbhajan has 2 Test hundreds

 

[h_hurricane]

This is a fantastic thread started by L&L.

No other cricketer of the 80s and early 90s had stats undersell him so much as Kapil Dev. India always had uninspiring pace bowlers until recent times, but those days we had mediocre spinners as well. His distractors might point to less than great overseas stats (batting avg 26, bowling avg 32), but the fact is that he had like 7 great tours to SENAW countries when world cricket was arguably at its zenith.

1. 1980-81 in Aus - 14 wickets at 23.78 (first drawn series there brought about by a great turnaround. His 5 wicket haul on final day of the series turned around a sure series loss)

2. 1982 in Eng- 292 runs at 73 and 10 wickets at 43.90 (Kapil was simply the best batsman from the touring side. Scored his runs at a breathtaking rate as well. His knocks of 41,89,97 and 65 were scored at a SR of around 120, something which would have been acceptable during IPL. Part of a pitiable attack with no support, his bowling stats suffered as the series progressed. Bowled around 800 deliveries in the 3 match series, with an 8 wicket match haul in Lords.)

3. 1982-83 in WI - Arguably his best overseas trip ever. 17 wickets at 24.94 and 254 runs at 42.33.(Once again the only bowler worth mentioning against an ATG lineup. Also smashed a quickfire hundred and a near hundred against the likes of Marshall, Holding and Garner)

4. 1985-86 in Aus - 12 wickets at 23 and 135 runs at 45. (The series would have gone down in history as India's first series victory in Australia, if not for umpiring howlers)

5. 1988-89 in WI - Another great trip to WI (18 wickets at 21.38).

6. 1990 in Eng - 220 runs at 55 (4 sixes to avoid follow on series)

7. 1991-92 in Aus - (25 wickets at 25.80, really the stand out bowler from the touring side)

1986 series win in Eng where he was man of the match in the first test and 1992-93 in SA where he was the highest run scorer from India are a couple of other noteworthy performances as well. His great performances overseas were consistently spaced out, through well over a decade.

People who saw him in 80s recognized him as one of the greatest all rounders of all time, though someone who has not seen him might just look at statsguru and argue he doesn't belong to the great 80s allrounders quartet.

 

[Flem274*]

Kapil's numbers are excellent for an allrounder. Pure averages compare well with Botham, Cairns, Flintoff etc. Sobers is the GOAT and the recency of Kallis has distorted our ideas on averages.

Stokes and Shakib are two of the best players in the world and neither averages 40+ with bat or under 30 with the ball.

Allrounders also tend to be a longer term investment given they have two full time roles and often one role declines while the other stays serviceable for the team, so their averages will always be worse than a specialist who has one job and is often dropped or retires when he can't do it well anymore.

Harbhajan has 2 Test hundreds

go away leave me alone

 

[_00_deathscar]

Stokes and Shakib are two of the best players in the world and neither averages 40+ with bat or under 30 with the ball.

I can think of an all rounder who does at least one of the above - and is inching slowly towards the 40+ (although will likely never make it).

 

[Flem274*]

I can think of an all rounder who does at least one of the above - and is inching slowly towards the 40+ (although will likely never make it).

I'm drawing a blank. Jadeja is solidly mid 30s batting wise, Green and Mulder really early, Holder low 30s, CdG mid 30s, Faheem quite early on too. Mathews doesn't bowl anymore. Who are you thinking of?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I'm drawing a blank. Jadeja is solidly mid 30s batting wise, Green and Mulder really early, Holder low 30s, CdG mid 30s, Faheem quite early on too. Mathews doesn't bowl anymore. Who are you thinking of?

Jamieson? Gonna take a lot for a 40+ average though

 

[ataraxia]

Jamieson? Gonna take a lot for a 40+ average though

he already averages 40+ lol.

_00_deathscar was inevitably referring to Jadeja.

 

[Starfighter]

Gotta be Lord Thakur. 38 with the bat and 23 with the ball, couldn't anyone else.

 

[Flem274*]

Jamieson? Gonna take a lot for a 40+ average though

i'll be amazed if he averages 30. lacks the backfoot D, always plays an attacking shot or gets sucked into coming forward. definitely a bowling allrounder, which is fine tbh.

monstrous troll with those long arms when you put it in the slot or short tho

 

[Aritro]

Surely no one who's 6'8 is going to be good enough with the bat to average 40 except in freakish, once-or-twice in a century exceptions (or "Jason Holder" as he was known, that one year). They won't have the balance, low-centre of gravity and proximity between eyes and ball that makes batting easier for shorter men.

I suppose the lanky freaks will just have to settle for being unplayable if they can land it on a good length, brilliant at certain other sports if they're even moderately coordinated and wildly attractive to women in a visceral, primordial way that seems to supersede all other factors including whether they've got a face like a bag of spanners. They're fine, don't feel sorry for them.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I'm drawing a blank. Jadeja is solidly mid 30s batting wise,

Yes. Averages well under 30 with the ball (so covers one of the above) and is a solid mid 30s average bat, but has really pumped his batting stats up last few years (to the detriment of his bowling but he’s still <30 there).

We do not consider The Lord for such mortal debates by the way. It is blasphemy.

 

[BoyBrumby]

edit - i didn't know lindwall could bat so well. i knew he could bat, but not 2 test hundreds bat. what a package.

Richie Benaud was firmly of the opinion Ray was a genuine all-rounder.

Kicked goals for St George too. Good enough player to play in the 1946 grand final for the Dragons.

Strong claim to be Australia's best allround sportsman, IMHO.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I suppose the lanky freaks will just have to settle for being unplayable if they can land it on a good length, brilliant at certain other sports if they're even moderately coordinated and wildly attractive to women in a visceral, primordial way that seems to supersede all other factors including whether they've got a face like a bag of spanners. It's fine, don't worry about them.

As brutal as it is factual. RIP manlets.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yes. Averages well under 30 with the ball (so covers one of the above) and is a solid mid 30s average bat, but has really pumped his batting stats up last few years (to the detriment of his bowling but he’s still <30 there).

We do not consider The Lord for such mortal debates by the way. It is blasphemy.

In fact, Jadeja still averages under 25 with the ball. After 5 tests in England.

Class is permanent. The legend of Sir Jadeja is permanent.