The legacy of Steve Smith

[RossTaylorsBox]

Given the current reversion to the norm, Smith averaging 60 will only look better and better as time passes.

People forget in the 1980s even the West Indies had Larry Gomes and then Carl Hooper.

Hey don't you dare **** on Larry Gomes.

 

[subshakerz]

Sean: "I feel people are saying Ponting had an average over 60 like Smith until the twilight period of his career but I am not sure if this true (thinking more like 55-58 until the decline). Can this be confirmed?" It reached 59.99 in his 107th Test in December 2006, when he had more than 9000 Test runs, and finished at 51.85.

Smith is 15 Tests short of that mark. Australia has tough tours coming up, India & England. These could define his legacy if he can sustain through them.

I think the hesitation until now was if Smith retired, would he be rated that high. I wouldn't rate Smith over Tendulkar if Smith averaged 60 plus with only 80-90 tests. However, I think once Smith reaches 100-110 plus tests and maintains that 60 plus average, him retiring at that point should be sufficient to go ahead over Tendulkar, barring any dramatic loss in form.

With Ponting, if he retired in early 2007, he surely would have been rated ahead of Tendulkar and Lara.

 

[Slifer]

It was just a reminder, Smith's numbers are not unprecedented.. Sachin's numbers were equally good if not better.

No they weren't. Smith's numbers are unprecedented because on top of the average and conversion there are several achievements he had Sachin never did. Two 700 + series, 3 + hundreds in a series four times, a century in each innings of a test etc. How exactly are Sachin's numbers better? Like seriously.

 

[Coronis]

Lara averaged 58.65 at home and 47.80 away.

Yeah whats your point? Thats what I said, no?

 

[subshakerz]

No they weren't. Smith's numbers are unprecedented because on top of the average and conversion there are several achievements he had Sachin never did. Two 700 + series, 3 + hundreds in a series four times, a century in each innings of a test etc. How exactly are Sachin's numbers better? Like seriously.

It's debatable. I consider Tendulkar averaging 58 in 90s, well ahead of everyone else, to be a seriously impressive stat, in a much more bowling-friendly era.

I would also rate Viv's peak better than Smith given that Smith mostly plundered subpar attacks on soft tracks at home.

But overall, yes, Smith's record is so far beyond those two.

 

[Coronis]

It's debatable. I consider Tendulkar averaging 58 in 90s, well ahead of everyone else, to be a seriously impressive stat, in a much more bowling-friendly era.

I would also rate Viv's peak better than Smith given that Smith mostly plundered subpar attacks on soft tracks at home.

But overall, yes, Smith's record is so far beyond those two.

If you want to call averaging 64 away over more innings than Viv’s entire peak (and more innings than at home), sure.

 

[Slifer]

It's debatable. I consider Tendulkar averaging 58 in 90s, well ahead of everyone else, to be a seriously impressive stat, in a much more bowling-friendly era.

I would also rate Viv's peak better than Smith given that Smith mostly plundered subpar attacks on soft tracks at home.

But overall, yes, Smith's record is so far beyond those two.

We've done this dance before. Sachin played in a more bowler friendly era in the 90s but he hardly got the better of the great attacks then. He also played significantly into a much weaker bowling era as well.

I'd like to know the subpar attacks Smith has plundered? WI, India, NZ, RSA, Eng? None of these are remotely as bad as Zim/Ban of Sachin's time. And Smith averages 60 outside Australia so he's plundered runs all over the world. Smith has the consistency of Sachin (more so imo) and the series dominance of a Viv or a Lara. Amazing batsman. Smith is as far ahead of his contemporaries as Sachin was of his.

 

[honestbharani]

If I have to rate them today, accounting for a possible late career slump for Smith, I would go...

Bradman >> Sobers > Smith > Lara > Sachin > Viv


If Smith were to end his career at this point, it will be...

Bradman >> Smith > Sobers > Lara > Sachin > Viv

 

[subshakerz]

If you want to call averaging 64 away over more innings than Viv’s entire peak (and more innings than at home), sure.

Smith's peak was 46 tests beginning from his India series in 2014 to Ashes 2019, averaging 77. He averaged 96 at home and 65 away.

Viv's peak was 34 tests from 76 to 81, averaging 71. He averaged 57 at home and 81 away.

Plus in Viv's peak he faced much much better bowling, and top scored in WSC.

Viv 76-81 > Smith 2014-2019.

 

[ankitj]

To imagine Bradman was clearly and significantly better than Smith boggles my mind. And gives more evidence that Bradman didn't actually exist.

 

[ankitj]

We've done this dance before. Sachin played in a more bowler friendly era in the 90s but he hardly got the better of the great attacks then. He also played significantly into a much weaker bowling era as well.

And despite missing out on cashing-in in half of that era he averaged ~59 over 18 years. Tendulkar's claim to be best since Bradman was imo strongest of all. Until Smith arrived.

 

[subshakerz]

We've done this dance before. Sachin played in a more bowler friendly era in the 90s but he hardly got the better of the great attacks then. He also played significantly into a much weaker bowling era as well.

I'd like to know the subpar attacks Smith has plundered? WI, India, NZ, RSA, Eng? None of these are remotely as bad as Zim/Ban of Sachin's time. And Smith averages 60 outside Australia so he's plundered runs all over the world. Smith has the consistency of Sachin (more so imo) and the series dominance of a Viv or a Lara. Amazing batsman. Smith is as far ahead of his contemporaries as Sachin was of his.

Yeah fair to say Tendulkar also plundered against weak teams too in his peak.

I think where Smith overtakes Tendulkar is not against high quality attacks, where they both did roughly as well, but the degree to which Smith plundered against softer teams/attacks with a ruthlessness that Tendulkar didn't have. Smith has an amazing eight series averaging over 100 in half of the games that it took Tendulkar.

 

[Godard]

No they weren't. Smith's numbers are unprecedented because on top of the average and conversion there are several achievements he had Sachin never did. Two 700 + series, 3 + hundreds in a series four times, a century in each innings of a test etc. How exactly are Sachin's numbers better? Like seriously.

Reminder that in addition averaging 58 in one of the most batter friendly eras(an era in which he started batting as a 17 year old), Sachin averaged 0.5 short of 60 for 157 tests from 1993 to 2011, without any continuous decline or slump in form except maybe the 12 matches between Sl vs Ind 2005-06 till 2006-07, ind vs sa. During this phase, he averaged 45+ in all major nations.

 

[Slifer]

And despite missing out on cashing-in in half of that era he averaged ~59 over 18 years. Tendulkar's claim to be best since Bradman was imo strongest of all. Until Smith arrived.

Smith's claim as of now is greater imo because Sachin played in a marginally better bowling era but against the best attacks of his time, one can hardly point to a series where he put them to the sword.

Take RSA with Donald for example, Sachin's best series vs them, he averaged 40. His best series vs McWarne: 50 or so. Vs Pakistan 42. Contrast that with Smith who once averaged 60 + in RSA vs Steyn and Philander.

 

[ZK$]

This is Tendulkar’s 18 year peak.

 

[subshakerz]

Smith's claim as of now is greater imo because Sachin played in a marginally better bowling era but against the best attacks of his time, one can hardly point to a series where he put them to the sword.

Take RSA with Donald for example, Sachin's best series vs them, he averaged 40. His best series vs McWarne: 50 or so. Vs Pakistan 42. Contrast that with Smith who once averaged 60 + in RSA vs Steyn and Philander.

Tendulkar averaged 81 against Steyn towards the end in his last series in SA. Then a couple of good series against Australia at their peak. Good series against Ambrose and Walsh in 97.

Smith basically has that one series in 2014 before he actually peaked against Steyn/Philander. Then 2017 against Ashwin/Jadeja. Failed in 2018 against SA's quality attack and in Ashes 2019, Anderson was missing. However, did well against SA in this series with a very good attack.

Hence, I say that Smith and Tendulkar are roughly equal in this area. I think scoring against India and England this year will allow him to put this issue to rest.

 

[ankitj]

These occasional "failures" of Smith are so precious. He "failed" in last BG trophy too.

 

[subshakerz]

Reminder that in addition averaging 58 in one of the most batter friendly eras(an era in which he started batting as a 17 year old), Sachin averaged 0.5 short of 60 for 157 tests from 1993 to 2011, without any continuous decline or slump in form except maybe the 12 matches between Sl vs Ind 2005-06 till 2006-07, ind vs sa. During this phase, he averaged 45+ in all major nations.

It is a phenomenal achievement from Tendulkar. But you have to give it to Smith if his entire career can match or exceed that sample.

 

[subshakerz]

These occasional "failures" of Smith are so precious. He "failed" in last BG trophy too.

2018 in SA was an outright failure. Last 2021 BG was a minor underperformance by his lofty standards. My lingering memory of that series is Smith being bowled by Bumrah on leg stump. I was 'dang! finally someone got the shuffler that way!'

 

[ankitj]

Smith's claim as of now is greater imo because Sachin played in a marginally better bowling era but against the best attacks of his time, one can hardly point to a series where he put them to the sword.

Take RSA with Donald for example, Sachin's best series vs them, he averaged 40. His best series vs McWarne: 50 or so. Vs Pakistan 42. Contrast that with Smith who once averaged 60 + in RSA vs Steyn and Philander.

Tendulkar has RSA covered. Average of 51 with 5 centuries, most by any visiting batsman in SA and he faced at least one of Donald/Pollock/Steyn on each tour. SA with Donald would be cherrypicking bit too finely.

EDIT: 51 in that 18 year period. 46 overall.