The ICC Super Series

[Richard]

hayden has scored one century in england u r forgetting his century in the 5th test of the 2001 series

Hayden scored 68 in the only innings of that match, it was Langer who scored the century.

 

[Richard]

just curious, what was saeed anwars First chance average? as far as i remember his innings, on several occasions that he got a 100, he was dropped very early on in his innings, especially at 2nd or 3rd slip.

I really don't know, I only saw him bat in 5 Tests (all vs England) during the time I was seriously watching and he didn't do particularly well (didn't get dropped once).
If he did get dropped lots, maybe he's a Pakistani Sehwag.

 

[garage flower]

I have also started to wonder at his form during those Tests, because it's not like he didn't get inswingers during the two double-centuries, and I find it impossible to conceive that he didn't get any during his 150 against Pakistan, either, or his 132* against NZ. And he certainly got a few during his very productive home WI series

Wouldn't have received many against a Windies attack featuring Sanford, Dillon and Collymore and not many accurate ones from Fidel Edwards, though I remember Fidel cleaning him up with a beautiful fast, perfectly-pitched inswinger in one of the games. To be fair to Smith, not many batsmen would have kept it out.

 

[Richard]

so ur saying that anwar plays the moving ball at pace better than hayden well while anwar was playing i cant remember too many opposistion bowlers tha moved the ball at pace. For example:

India - srinath, prasad they dont move the ball at any pace
sril lanka - vaas, wickramasinghe, zoysa of course not
west indies - ambrose, walsh, bishop anwar never toured the caribbean so he never face ambrose and walsh at their prime while in his only series againts them in pakistan in 97 they were old stagers

england - fraser, gough, mullaly, caddick, headly no no no
nz- allot, nash, cairns dont think so
i dont need to mention the rest

Err - eh?
I can categorically, doubtlessly tell you that just about every single one of those bowlers moved the ball, either through the air or off the pitch.
And if you really think Ambrose and Walsh were past it in 2000, let alone 1997, I suggest you think again.

while hayden only has akhtar and bond to content with and even though shoaib got him this season his record againts them is good even in shane bonds first series in 2001 he still scored two centuries

so u saying that saeed is better than hayden againts the pacy moving ball is bogus to me

No coincidence that Shoaib totally outgunned Hayden, mostly with inswingers. FFS, Kyle Mills made him look like an oaf.
And I'd like to see some inswingers Bond bowled to Hayden in those 2 Tests (not like he didn't get him out, either).

 

[Richard]

Wouldn't have received many against a Windies attack featuring Sanford, Dillon and Collymore and not many accurate ones from Fidel Edwards, though I remember Fidel cleaning him up with a beautiful fast, perfectly-pitched inswinger in one of the games. To be fair to Smith, not many batsmen would have kept it out.

This one, presumably?

11.5 Edwards to Smith, OUT: fwd and doesnt cover thee line, nips back
from just outside off and rips off stump out of the ground as it
hit the top of it and Smith wasnt offering a shot

(Third Test, second-innings)
Edwards was the one I was referring to - however wayward he was for just about all that series, I refuse to believe that he didn't get any in the right areas given how many deliveries he bowled to Graeme in the series.

 

[Richard]

- Matryn average would go down has the years come

It'd be the logical assumption.

- and you dont see mcgrath producing wikcet taking deliveries on flat pitches

I don't, except in one game.

Finally that mcgrath doesn't produce wicket taking deliveries on flat pithces. Thats bogus because in the sub-continent which is a historical graveyard for fast bowlers and has an abundance of flat pitches mcgrath has one of the best records in all three countries over their and on every tour glenn would find a flat pitch to contend with and he has done exceptional on it most of the time. So mate when u make these fascinating comments think mate please because cleary u dont know what ur saying

No, you just don't think about the fact that he's got a good average doesn't mean he's bowled wicket-taking deliveries.

Firstly u must not have been wayching martyn list the sri lankan tour and throughout 2004 (Hye that rhymed).

No, I wasn't - I was reading reports of him being dropped several times, though.

 

[Richard]

So if they have this tendencyt, how can they be better than a side that doesn't have it?

Because at their peak they're more deadly than the more consistent side?

 

[Richard]

To decide if 1 side is better than the other they're a more reliable source than anything else.

No, they're not - a review of the calibre of the players is more accurate.

 

[garage flower]

That would be the one. Clearly, even though it appears to be a glaring weakness, Smith isn't going to be dismissed by every inswinger he faces, but I'd be surprised if he faced many (well-pitched ones) in that series. From memory, Fidel generally concentrated on bowling with as much pace as possible. Mr M will no doubt remember more clearly.

 

[aussie]

aussie

Err - eh?
I can categorically, doubtlessly tell you that just about every single one of those bowlers moved the ball, either through the air or off the pitch.
And if you really think Ambrose and Walsh were past it in 2000, let alone 1997, I suggest you think again.

No coincidence that Shoaib totally outgunned Hayden, mostly with inswingers. FFS, Kyle Mills made him look like an oaf.
And I'd like to see some inswingers Bond bowled to Hayden in those 2 Tests (not like he didn't get him out, either).

no ur going againts what u said earlier u said the moving ball at pace and i say again pace i agree that they move the ball but not at any extreme pace during that 97 series ambi and cuddy walsh had lost pace and i dont know why u r stressing so much on anwar's and hayden's vulnerabilty againts the fast moving ball because any batsman that comes up againts bowling like that will have some difficulty negitiating it

 

[Richard]

That would be the one. Clearly, even though it appears to be a glaring weakness, Smith isn't going to be dismissed by every inswinger he faces, but I'd be surprised if he faced many (well-pitched ones) in that series. From memory, Fidel generally concentrated on bowling with as much pace as possible. Mr M will no doubt remember more clearly.

He bowled poorly, yes - but nonetheless he rarely failed to swing the new-ball, and however poorly he bowled he still got some deliveries in the right area - he bowled 829 deliveries in the series (plus 10 wides), it's impossible that quite a few weren't well-pitched inswingers, indeed I remember a few (mostly whipped through midwicket).

 

[Richard]

no ur going againts what u said earlier u said the moving ball at pace and i say again pace i agree that they move the ball but not at any extreme pace during that 97 series ambi and cuddy walsh had lost pace and i dont know why u r stressing so much on anwar's and hayden's vulnerabilty againts the fast moving ball because any batsman that comes up againts bowling like that will have some difficulty negitiating it

I'm not talking about 90mph pace, simply 80+mph - AT SEAMERS' PACE, rather than spinners' pace.

 

[aussie]

aussie

I'm not talking about 90mph pace, simply 80+mph - AT SEAMERS' PACE, rather than spinners' pace.

ok then, well u cant say that because all these runs hayden has made in all different conditons over the last 4 years againts againts teams who have bowlers has u have put it in the ``80 + mph bracket bowlers `` u cant say that. may be mat has a little weakness againts those deliveries at pace that move into him but which left hander doesn't

 

[Richard]

No, Hayden has a very clear weakness against the ball moving back into him at 80mph+.
And he's not made runs in all sorts of conditions, he's made runs on flat or turning pitches against bowlers who haven't moved the ball back into him.

 

[sledger]

No, Hayden has a very clear weakness against the ball moving back into him at 80mph+.
And he's not made runs in all sorts of conditions, he's made runs on flat or turning pitches against bowlers who haven't moved the ball back into him.

yes massively overated he is methinks. hope harmy rips through him in the ashes, let hoggy move the ball back at him and then we'll see how good he is

 

[aussie]

aussie

No, Hayden has a very clear weakness against the ball moving back into him at 80mph+.
And he's not made runs in all sorts of conditions, he's made runs on flat or turning pitches against bowlers who haven't moved the ball back into him.

if you say so give me facts the only series i can remember hayden having that problem was in the pakistan series, while when shane bond played in the 2001 series in australia he suprsied the australians with that ability and hayden still scored 297 runs at 59 with a century while when australia pakistan in sri lanka and sharjah and when akhtar had that spell of 5 - 11 in 19 balls in the first test and hostile bolwing throughout that series he scored about 250 runs at about 60 odd with a century. So u can see here that my facts here show that what ur sayin g about hayden isn't quite accurate.

 

[aussie]

aussie

maybe u can also say that he had a poor ashes tour in 2001 but u cant say that he has a huge weakness againts the ball moving into him at some pace, a matter of fact almost all left handers do. But if ur so certain that anwar that anwar plays those kind of deliveries better than hayden it dont agree because that same year when australia where last year when the pakistani's came first i remember him scoring barely 60 odd runs in the 2 test series where he was out lbw in a few of those 4 innings while he did make runs when pakistan where here i think in 1996 i still am not convinced that he plays the fast moving ball with any great degree of centainty

 

[Richard]

if you say so give me facts the only series i can remember hayden having that problem was in the pakistan series, while when shane bond played in the 2001 series in australia he suprsied the australians with that ability and hayden still scored 297 runs at 59 with a century

Surprised them so much that he took 4 wickets at 90-odd or so.

while when australia pakistan in sri lanka and sharjah and when akhtar had that spell of 5 - 11 in 19 balls in the first test and hostile bolwing throughout that series he scored about 250 runs at about 60 odd with a century. So u can see here that my facts here show that what ur sayin g about hayden isn't quite accurate.

Thanks to dropped catches, yes.

 

[Richard]

maybe u can also say that he had a poor ashes tour in 2001 but u cant say that he has a huge weakness againts the ball moving into him at some pace, a matter of fact almost all left handers do. But if ur so certain that anwar that anwar plays those kind of deliveries better than hayden it dont agree because that same year when australia where last year when the pakistani's came first i remember him scoring barely 60 odd runs in the 2 test series where he was out lbw in a few of those 4 innings while he did make runs when pakistan where here i think in 1996 i still am not convinced that he plays the fast moving ball with any great degree of centainty

Mark my words - he did.
Of course he doesn't any more, though.

 

[aussie]

aussie

well u cant blame hyaden for them dropping catches but lets leave it at that for now on the anwar hayden debate