The Greatest All-Rounder of All Time

[bagapath]

Oh yes. But you know why I do not arte him amongst the greatest of all time, because of what he bowled. He bowled round arm slow. His arm was just at shoulder level, parallel to the ground, and he tossed the ball in the air and his main wicket taking ball was where he tempted the batsman to try and hit what looked like a 'lollipop' towards square leg (which was really the only place you could hit such a ball. And he would have them caught in the deep.

This doesn't seem the kind of tactics that would work with latter day cricketers. I think under arm and round arm bowlers have to be left out of consideration in all time teams unless they really made the ball talk by putting some work on them.

well, with only 9 wickets he would not be able to meet any statistical cut off point. i guess he would never be part of the poll. intend to start the first poll tomorrow evening. will wait for any further opinions/tips on how this can be run.

 

[Uppercut]

I don't disagree with you SJS - judging by different criteria will give different opinions - WG had a degree of dominance over his peers that no modern day rival can come close to matching - but I would accept that doesn't really help much in making comparisons

I don't really think you can even begin to compare WG Grace to any of the others mentioned though. Inter-generational comparisons grow tedious at the best of times, but the game Grace played was so different it's akin to adding Babe Ruth to the equation.

 

[zaremba]

I'd like to add Babe Ruth to the equation.

 

[pasag]

W. Armstrong

 

[fredfertang]

I'd like to add Babe Ruth to the equation.

A career total of 700 odd runs doesn't merit the inclusion of a bloke who doubtless chucked as well

 

[inbox24]

Andrew McDonald

 

[zaremba]

Sobers - Kallis - Warne - Murali - stats - eyewitness evidence - Babe Ruth - Andrew Macdonald - close the thread please - goodbye

 

[SJS]

I don't disagree with you SJS - judging by different criteria will give different opinions - WG had a degree of dominance over his peers that no modern day rival can come close to matching - but I would accept that doesn't really help much in making comparisons

Exactly. I agree he was a very good bowler in his time but the stuff he bowled is gone. No one bowls it any more. I always maintain that a great athlete in one time period will be a great athlete in another. He will adapt to the change since he would be born to it but its difficult to decide what WG would bowl for example in a different time.

I have no doubt, for example, that the Tendulkar's and Lara's may consider WG's bowling fodder if it was bowled at them today but they would have to treat it with respect if THEY were been 125 years ago.

Thats why, I dont mind putting WG in an all time side as a batsman (and maybe a change bowler) but not as an all rounder.

By the way, a change bowler is what he was called even in those days. I am sure I can find a description of his bowling by one of his contemporaries.

That should be interesting for some people here.

 

[fredfertang]

Although I don't really agree with Uppercut (although I can see his point) I suppose it has to be conceded that overarm bowling wasn't even legal when WG began his career

 

[SJS]

well, with only 9 wickets he would not be able to meet any statistical cut off point. i guess he would never be part of the poll. intend to start the first poll tomorrow evening. will wait for any further opinions/tips on how this can be run.

Of course if one was to consider WG one cant look at Test matches. He played so few, so late and at a time when they were not even considered as important as a game between Yorkshire and Surrey or Gentlemen versus Players.

WG has to be evaluated on the basis of his first class career.

By the way, someone mentioned that WG played a completely different game. Sorry mate, you have got it all wrong. If I send you action pictures of WG batting you will be stunned to see the strokes... and he also slog swept and did it often to balls outside the off stump in defiance to what was considered 'propah' in those days.

That guy could bat.

I read somewhere that we would look at WG differently if only he didn't have that beard. It somehow is in total contrast to our stereo type of an athlete. Add to that his increasing girth over his career and the modern fan finds him as an amusing caricature of a cricketer but wont always say it since it may be considered blasphemous by some.

 

[bagapath]

Sobers - Kallis - Warne - Murali - stats - eyewitness evidence - Babe Ruth - Andrew Macdonald - close the thread please - goodbye

 

[SJS]

Although I don't really agree with Uppercut (although I can see his point) I suppose it has to be conceded that overarm bowling wasn't even legal when WG began his career

Sorry Fred, not correct.

Overarm bowling was legalised in 1864. WG was only 16 years old then. So he had all the time to bowl completely over-arm if he wished from the very beginning but he preferred to bowl round arm well into the 20th century as did some others though most switched over to overarm in international cricket at least in the 20th century.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Simon Katich

 

[fredfertang]

Sorry Fred, not correct.

Overarm bowling was legalised in 1864. WG was only 16 years old then. So he had all the time to bowl completely over-arm if he wished from the very beginning but he preferred to bowl round arm well into the 20th century as did some others though most switched over to overarm in international cricket at least in the 20th century.

Yes but he was playing against the formidable All England XI in 1863 - the point I was making was that he learnt his bowling, by necessity, as a round armer

 

[Uppercut]

I don't disagree with you SJS - judging by different criteria will give different opinions - WG had a degree of dominance over his peers that no modern day rival can come close to matching - but I would accept that doesn't really help much in making comparisons

Aye- even mentioning it is immediately harsh on Dev, Hadlee, Imran and Botham.

 

[SJS]

Yes but he was playing against the formidable All England XI in 1863 - the point I was making was that he learnt his bowling, by necessity, as a round armer

Sure but a very large number of his contemporaries actually changed their bowling method and many of them were much older than he was when the law came. After all he played first class cricket for another forty years all of it under the changed law.

I think he was comfortable with his bowling and never felt the need to change. It just denied us the pleasure of knowing who he may have been comparable with if he had

 

[bagapath]

Based on Post WW 2 Stats minus minnows here are the allrounders short listed

[B][U]All Rounders	[/U][/B]										
											
N Kapil Dev (India) 	129 	5172 	163 	30.97 	8 	430 	9/83 	29.61 	23 	64 	0
IT Botham (Eng)  	102 	5200 	208 	33.54 	14 	383 	8/34 	28.40 	27 	120 	0
SM Pollock (SA) 	100 	3630 	111 	32.12 	2 	389 	7/87 	23.74 	15 	62 	0
Imran Khan (Pak) 	88 	3807 	136 	37.69 	6 	362 	8/58 	22.81 	23 	28 	0
A Flintoff (Eng) 	70 	3562 	167 	32.38 	5 	202 	5/58 	33.23 	2 	50 	0
AW Greig (Eng) 	58 	3599 	148 	40.43 	8 	141 	8/86 	32.20 	6 	87 	0
KR Miller (Aus) 	55 	2958 	147 	36.97 	7 	170 	7/60 	22.97 	7 	38 	0
CL Cairns (NZ) 	52 	2756 	158 	32.04 	3 	166 	7/27 	31.96 	10 	14 	0
MH Mankad (India) 	44 	2109 	231 	31.47 	5 	162 	8/52 	32.32 	8 	33 	0
TL Goddard (SA) 	41 	2516 	112 	34.46 	1 	123 	6/53 	26.22 	5 	48 	0
											
[B][U]Bowling All Rounders		[/U][/B]									
											
Wasim Akram (Pak) 	92	2458 	123 	21.18 	2 	367 	7/119 	23.78 	21 	39 	0
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 	86 	3124 	151* 	27.16 	2 	431 	9/52 	22.29 	36 	39 	0
R Benaud (Aus) 	63 	2201 	122 	24.45 	3 	248 	7/72 	27.03 	16 	65 	0
TE Bailey (Eng) 	61 	2290 	134* 	29.74 	1 	132 	7/34 	29.21 	5 	32 	0
R Illingworth (Eng) 	61 	1836 	113 	23.24 	2 	122 	6/29 	31.20 	3 	45 	0
RR Lindwall (Aus) 	61 	1502 	118 	21.15 	2 	228 	7/38 	23.03 	12 	26 	0.
BR Taylor (NZ)  	30  	898  	124  	20.40  	2  	111  	7/74  	26.60  	4  	10  	0
											
											
[B][U]Batting All Rounders	[/U][/B]										
											
JH Kallis (SA) 	118 	9198 	186 	51.38 	27 	219 	6/54 	33.94 	3 	131 	0
GS Sobers (WI) 	93 	8032 	365* 	57.78 	26 	235 	6/73 	34.03 	6 	109 	0
SR Waugh (Aus) 	163 	10381 	200 	48.96 	29 	92 	5/28 	36.75 	3 	108 	0
ST Jayasuriya (SL) 	92 	5865 	340 	38.58 	11 	73 	5/34 	39.28 	1 	68 	0
Mudassar (Pak)	76 	4114 	231 	38.09 	10 	66 	6/32 	38.36 	1 	48 	0
BE Congdon (NZ) 	61 	3448 	176 	32.22 	7 	59 	5/65 	36.50 	1 	44 	0
JR Reid (NZ)  	58  	3428  	142  	33.28  	6  	85  	6/60  	33.35  	1  	43  	1
Mushtaq Mohd (Pak)	57	3643 	201 	39.17 	10 	79 	5/28 	29.22 	3 	42 	0
FMM Worrell (WI) 	51 	3860 	261 	49.48 	9 	69 	7/70 	38.72 	2 	43 	0
											
[B][U]Wicket Keeping All Rounders	[/U][/B]										
											
											
IA Healy (Aus) 	118 	4351 	161* 	27.53 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	364 	29
MV Boucher (SA) 	111 	4208 	122* 	28.62 	3 	1 	1/6 	6.00 	0 	390 	18
RW Marsh (Aus) 	96 	3633 	132 	26.51 	3 	0 	- 	- 	0 	343 	12
APE Knott (Eng) 	95 	4389 	135 	32.75 	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	250 	19
AC Gilchrist (Aus)	89 	5143 	204* 	46.33 	15 	- 	- 	- 	- 	351 	32
SMH Kirmani (India)	88	2759 	102 	27.04 	2 	1 	1/9 	13.00 	0 	160 	38
PJL Dujon (WI) 	79 	3146 	139 	31.46 	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	265 	5
AJ Stewart (Eng) 	76 	4057 	173 	32.98 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	216 	14
Moin Khan (Pak) 	62 	2459 	137 	28.92 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	122 	20
RD Jacobs (WI) 	56 	2249 	118 	26.77 	3 	- 	- 	- 	- 	176 	10
AC Parore (NZ) 	56 	2122 	110 	25.87 	2 	- 	- 	- 	- 	159 	7
A Flower (Zim) 	51 	4166 	232* 	52.73 	11 	- 	- 	- 	- 	133 	7
JHB Waite (SA) 	49 	2336 	134 	30.33 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	124 	17
KC Sangakkara (SL)	40	2658 	230 	39.67 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	99 	14
Kamran Akmal (Pak)	38	2008 	158* 	34.62 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	121 	18

Pl feel free to add, delete, debate before we start the first round of polls.

 

[Athlai]

Whats Parore doing there?

 

[social]

For Test matches only

• Batting Allrounder : Sobers
• Bowling All Rounder : Miller
• Keeping All Rounder : Ames

I've always regarded Ames as overrated

From what I've read, he wasnt the greatest keeper and his batting record is padded by returns against lesser teams

 

[Nutter]

Whats Parore doing there?

Was wondering myself!