SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Or Zimbabwe.Or in Bangladesh
The fellow was positively scared of the new kids-on-the-block
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The Fast Bowler's fast Bowlers
- Thread starter SJS
- Start date
The fellow was positively scared of the new kids-on-the-block
archie mac
International Coach
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Good point.
To be in Lillee's company is no shame at all. Depending who you ask of course.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
David Gower in his book "Heroes and Contemporaries"(1983) writes of various players he saw and played with or against. Amongst the 18 that he devotes each chapter to are six pace bowlers.
He does not write in detail about the bowling of all, for example not much of Botham the bowler. Anyway, here is what I could get of the others.
- Botham
- Hadlee
- Imran
- Willis
- Lillee and
- Roberts
He does not write in detail about the bowling of all, for example not much of Botham the bowler. Anyway, here is what I could get of the others.
Bob Willis
Curioiusly, I have rarely faced Bob Willis in county cricket, a measure of the demands made by international fixtures in the last decade. The first hand information I can offer is that of Watching Bob bowl those countless overs for England and on those occasions, almost without exception, his performance would have to be described as superb.
He will always be very intense on the field. When he is trying hard and the whole team are trying hard with him, he can not bear to see the initiative slip away. In one of his overs he will come tearing in, ball after ball, expending every ounce of effort and if he doesn't get a breakthrough or if a chance is missed ,he will stalk away with that tight expression on his face, eyes blazing. People tend to be put off with that kind of intensity and it is necessary to know him to appreciate him.
Imran Khan
Imran is one of the world's most influential and powerful players. A superb fast bowler whose great gift is to be able to swing the old ball alarmingly. At Lords... both Imran and Sarfaraz swung the ball more than normally through this match, raising suspicions, even allegations, that some extra substance had been applied. Imran didn't surprise us too much in that he has always had the ability to move the ball. Sarfaraz is different; he is mostly a seamer - ie he moves the ball pff the pitch rather than through the air.
Andy Roberts
Andy is the brains of the West Indies attack - and the best of it. They are all great bowlers, they've learned a lot over the past seven years ..... Michael Holding is faster, Colin Croft can be more hostile, Joel Garner is all awkward angles and sudden bounce, while Malcolm Marshall is high speed deception, the ball skidding onto you faster than you expected ....... but Andy, the oldest and the shrewdest, tops them all.
Andy thinks you out....One of his greatest assets is that he always talks a lot of good cricket sense and on those occasions that we have roomed together and he's been awake when I've got in, some long and very worthwhile discussions on the game.
Richard Hadlee
I can pay Richard Hadlee no greater compliment than to say that at his best he comes close to Dennis Lillee, a genuinely great fast bowler. Richard is always a top-class bowler, of firm control and whippy action, the execution of which appears so effortless and easy that we wonder why we can't all bowl like that.
Dennis Lillee
If Dennis Lillee isn't the greatest fast bowler then he must come very close to being so.
For a start he's always had great control which means that he can vary his length, his line of attack and his pace at will and at his peak he was very fast. He can also adapt, as in the Melbourne Test in 1980 when on a pitch of uneven bounce and carrying a shoulder injury, he slowed down to medium-fast, rolled his fingers over the ball and with a mixture of leg breaks and off-cutters took six English wickets for 60.
At Perth, I played him at the top of my form in the first innings and felt as though I could handle anything he let go. But in the second innings, despite feeling confident again, it wasn't before one seamed in - Gower lbw Lillee. Later in the tour, after Dennis returned for the odi's, the card read - Gower b Lillee. Fancying myself to make runs on a good wicket, I had begun to play some shots against Lillee only for one to swing in past an intended extra cover-drive to clip the off stump. The motto is simply, "Never relax - this man can bowl."
Curioiusly, I have rarely faced Bob Willis in county cricket, a measure of the demands made by international fixtures in the last decade. The first hand information I can offer is that of Watching Bob bowl those countless overs for England and on those occasions, almost without exception, his performance would have to be described as superb.
He will always be very intense on the field. When he is trying hard and the whole team are trying hard with him, he can not bear to see the initiative slip away. In one of his overs he will come tearing in, ball after ball, expending every ounce of effort and if he doesn't get a breakthrough or if a chance is missed ,he will stalk away with that tight expression on his face, eyes blazing. People tend to be put off with that kind of intensity and it is necessary to know him to appreciate him.
Imran Khan
Imran is one of the world's most influential and powerful players. A superb fast bowler whose great gift is to be able to swing the old ball alarmingly. At Lords... both Imran and Sarfaraz swung the ball more than normally through this match, raising suspicions, even allegations, that some extra substance had been applied. Imran didn't surprise us too much in that he has always had the ability to move the ball. Sarfaraz is different; he is mostly a seamer - ie he moves the ball pff the pitch rather than through the air.
Andy Roberts
Andy is the brains of the West Indies attack - and the best of it. They are all great bowlers, they've learned a lot over the past seven years ..... Michael Holding is faster, Colin Croft can be more hostile, Joel Garner is all awkward angles and sudden bounce, while Malcolm Marshall is high speed deception, the ball skidding onto you faster than you expected ....... but Andy, the oldest and the shrewdest, tops them all.
Andy thinks you out....One of his greatest assets is that he always talks a lot of good cricket sense and on those occasions that we have roomed together and he's been awake when I've got in, some long and very worthwhile discussions on the game.
Richard Hadlee
I can pay Richard Hadlee no greater compliment than to say that at his best he comes close to Dennis Lillee, a genuinely great fast bowler. Richard is always a top-class bowler, of firm control and whippy action, the execution of which appears so effortless and easy that we wonder why we can't all bowl like that.
Dennis Lillee
If Dennis Lillee isn't the greatest fast bowler then he must come very close to being so.
For a start he's always had great control which means that he can vary his length, his line of attack and his pace at will and at his peak he was very fast. He can also adapt, as in the Melbourne Test in 1980 when on a pitch of uneven bounce and carrying a shoulder injury, he slowed down to medium-fast, rolled his fingers over the ball and with a mixture of leg breaks and off-cutters took six English wickets for 60.
At Perth, I played him at the top of my form in the first innings and felt as though I could handle anything he let go. But in the second innings, despite feeling confident again, it wasn't before one seamed in - Gower lbw Lillee. Later in the tour, after Dennis returned for the odi's, the card read - Gower b Lillee. Fancying myself to make runs on a good wicket, I had begun to play some shots against Lillee only for one to swing in past an intended extra cover-drive to clip the off stump. The motto is simply, "Never relax - this man can bowl."
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
As I've said before, removing Sri Lanka is pointless unless you're going to start looking at top-order\tail wickets. Hadlee was also patently obviously a more multi-skilled bowler than Holding, and as mentioned had success against more teams.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
It is such a shame that so many of these books being quoted from in this thread and elsewhere seem to be early-'80s books. This means they'll never offer a fair assessment of Malcolm Marshall, who wasn't yet a first-choice, never mind a World-class operative, until 1983.
It'd be great to hear some stuff from books published later. 1990 maybe, or 1995.
If, obviously, the assembled company possess such things.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Ok, don't remove it. Holding still didn't play Sri Lanka. When you look at what Imran and Hadlee did to them, and know in general they were a very weak side in he period, you know Holding would (in all likeliness) have turned out statistically even or better than Hadlee.
And having played all thoughout his career in the same period as Hadlee, it makes them very comparable. I fail to see how Hadlee has a, quote, "irrefutable" case. You are vastly underrating Holding.
Not only is he statistically one of the greats of his day, but he is held very highly in cricketing circles. Almost always mentioned in the same breath as the Lillees and Hadlees. I mean, what he also did in 1976 at the Oval is simply amazing. I am not going to say he is better than Hadlee. But "irrefutable" Richard? Poor word choice.
People still talk about his action and his speed to this day.
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Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
And people don't still talk about Hadlee's action? Even more so? And what Hadlee did at The 'Gabba in 1985/86 (and several other occasions) wasn't simply amazing too?
Holding was a magnificent bowler, up there with all but a tiny handful of those to have sent a cricket ball down the pitch. But Hadlee had several things over him and to deny this would be fruitless. Hadlee was the complete seam-bowler, Holding was not. Only a tiny number of people have ever been the complete seam-bowler.
Holding was a magnificent bowler, up there with all but a tiny handful of those to have sent a cricket ball down the pitch. But Hadlee had several things over him and to deny this would be fruitless. Hadlee was the complete seam-bowler, Holding was not. Only a tiny number of people have ever been the complete seam-bowler.
archie mac
International Coach
What did Holding lack?
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Holding has been accused of relying solely on speed for most of his career. While that's patently false - no-one will get too far with just that - there's no doubt that of times he pitched too short and did not have the tricks up his sleeve that the likes of Marshall, Hadlee, Lillee, and even many much lesser bowlers like Vaas or Gough did.
Holding was a perfectly capable swing bowler and obviously got the ball to move off the seam. He was also patently a highly intelligent operator, you can tell that by hearing him talk about how he bowled and talk about the errors certain bowlers make during his commentary stints. Yet he does seem to have been a tadge one-dimensional of times.
Holding was a perfectly capable swing bowler and obviously got the ball to move off the seam. He was also patently a highly intelligent operator, you can tell that by hearing him talk about how he bowled and talk about the errors certain bowlers make during his commentary stints. Yet he does seem to have been a tadge one-dimensional of times.
archie mac
International Coach
He was very quick, but I can remember him coming in off his shorter run and causing the batsman just as much trouble, one of the best that I ever watched
Top_Cat
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Yeh, exactly. Calling Holding one-dimensional is a bit harsh considering he was one of the few quicks to experiment in Tests and ODI's with a far short-run up, cutting the ball all over the place.He was very quick, but I can remember him coming in off his shorter run and causing the batsman just as much trouble, one of the best that I ever watched
As for relying on speed, Christ if I could bowl that quick I'd be the same. When you're that fast, it's barely a criticism and, really, only against the elite players are any other skills you possess tested to any great degree. That Holding still managed a decent record and managed to regularly wreck blokes like Greg Cheppell and Geof Boycott suggests he didn't just rely on speed anyway.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Well first of all the master writers haven't written anything after the 1980's
Secondly, one doesn't find too much from the great cricketers by way of memoirs in recent years. I was very disappointed by Steve Waugh's autobiography in this regard. I wish he had provided it with a handle in the middle - at least I could have used it in my gym in place of regular weights (I got an extra one as a gift after I had already bought it).
Atheton writes nothing of Marshall in his autobiography, Opening Up. although he did play him in the 1991 series. It may have been Marshall's last but he still got 20 wickets in the series and also Atherton must have played him in county cricket. That was disappointing for me.
I am also very keen to read some more stuff about Marshall because, one I have, as admitted many times before, been a bit biased against him for his unorthodox action. Secondly, and I suspect much more importantly, from 1985 onwards I was busy setting up a new company (and a greenfield pioneering project at that) from scratch as CEO and did not watch any cricket during 1985-1987 as the company was in the project stage nor much in the next 2-3 years as the company ran into big teething troubles and we had to struggle to keep it solvent. I missed most of the second half of his great career.
I also missed most of the 1987 world cup
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Burgey
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Bugger - beaten to it.I think we all did.
Not many opps to pick SJS up on something!!!
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Ha ha - I meant 1987 of course.I think we all did.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Incidentally, Atherton does write in great detail about some of the more recent bowlers - great ones in their own rights. Here it is.
Lancashire had seen Waqar the previous summer at Old Trafford in a Benson and Hedges match against Surrey. He had charged in from the sight screen, literally, and his first ball was a lethal bouncer to Graeme Fowler. Paul Allott was watching in the pavilion and he snorted, 'A season in county cricket will soon shorten that run up.' Waqar continued to run in like that for the rest of the summer. He ran in like that for throughout the whole of the next year and was still doing so a decade later when I played against him. He was a magnificent competitor and there are few more glorious sights in cricket than Waqar steaming in at full tilt.
Wasim did not have such a long run-up and bustled in off no more than fifteen paces. He had an incredibly fast arm so that he lost nothing in pace in comparison to Waqar and he was probably the more difficult of the two to pick up. While Waqar tried to swing the new ball out by pitching it up, Wasim preferred to keep it short and opening against him was always a Test of courage. Indeed after my last Test at The Oval I was chatting with Shane Warne and he asked me if Wasim and I did not get along. 'Jeez mate, he is always bouncing the **** out of you.' In fact, Wasim and I were, and are, great mates but some reason, he has always bounced the **** out of me.
Both of them were more dangerous with the old ball. It was the first time the phenomenon of reverse swing came into obvious prominence in England. Time and again, Wasim and Waqar would undo the good work of the top order and blow away the middle and tail end. At Lord's England were 197-3 and 255 all out and at Headingley we were 271-1 and 320 all out . Batting in the middle order was a dangerous proposition against Pakistan that summer.
I remember one delivery in particular, which castled a bemused Derek Pringle. It seemed to swing both ways in the air, turning Pringle first this way and then that before knocking his stumps flat. Many years later I asked Pringle about that delivery and he confirmed that it was the best that he had ever received and is adamant that neither he, nor anyone else, could have kept it out. The point is, I think, that a new batsman at the crease had little or no chance; only if you had been a while did your chances of survival increase.
Waqar's signature ball was an in-swinging yorker. He would set the batsman up by bowling outside the off stump and then produce a ball of maximum effort that zeroed in, with unerring accuracy, on the batsman's toes or on the base of the stumps. Wasim was less predictable and could reverse the ball both ways. He excelled at coming around the wicket, angling in to the right hander and then swinging it away. He had a slight change of action for his yorker. As he approached the crease he would swing his bowling arm back in an arc high above his head before he got into action. The problem was he also did this for his bouncer and so it was hazardous business predicting which was coming.
We had numerous team meetings about how to cope with these twin threats.
All were good suggestions but in the end each batsman had to sort things out for himself. I decided to keep a low backlift when the ball was reversing to keep out the yorkers, play the ball as late as possible and use the pace of the ball to score. I kept my footwork to the minimum and tried not to get my foot in the way of the in-swinger. It was almost like playing French cricket.
I had as much success as anybody and scored good half centuries at Headingley and The Oval. But like everyone else, I succumbed occasionally. In the second innings at the Oval, Waqar got me cheaply and bowled the quickest spell, through the air, that I have ever faced. I was in good company. He also dismissed David Gower that day with a wonderful in-swinger that david mis-picked and left, only to see it cannon into his stumps. It was his last innings for England.
In the end we had to admit that Wasim and Waqar had proved too good. It was no disgrace to lose.
Wonderful stuff. Brings back vivid memories of the last great pair of fast bowlers we have seen (so far)
Waqar and Wasim
Because of their exploits with their respective counties neither were unknowns. But they took their bowling to new heights in 1992 and I have not seen a better or more dangerous pair of fast bowlers than those two that summer.
Lancashire had seen Waqar the previous summer at Old Trafford in a Benson and Hedges match against Surrey. He had charged in from the sight screen, literally, and his first ball was a lethal bouncer to Graeme Fowler. Paul Allott was watching in the pavilion and he snorted, 'A season in county cricket will soon shorten that run up.' Waqar continued to run in like that for the rest of the summer. He ran in like that for throughout the whole of the next year and was still doing so a decade later when I played against him. He was a magnificent competitor and there are few more glorious sights in cricket than Waqar steaming in at full tilt.
Wasim did not have such a long run-up and bustled in off no more than fifteen paces. He had an incredibly fast arm so that he lost nothing in pace in comparison to Waqar and he was probably the more difficult of the two to pick up. While Waqar tried to swing the new ball out by pitching it up, Wasim preferred to keep it short and opening against him was always a Test of courage. Indeed after my last Test at The Oval I was chatting with Shane Warne and he asked me if Wasim and I did not get along. 'Jeez mate, he is always bouncing the **** out of you.' In fact, Wasim and I were, and are, great mates but some reason, he has always bounced the **** out of me.
Both of them were more dangerous with the old ball. It was the first time the phenomenon of reverse swing came into obvious prominence in England. Time and again, Wasim and Waqar would undo the good work of the top order and blow away the middle and tail end. At Lord's England were 197-3 and 255 all out and at Headingley we were 271-1 and 320 all out . Batting in the middle order was a dangerous proposition against Pakistan that summer.
I remember one delivery in particular, which castled a bemused Derek Pringle. It seemed to swing both ways in the air, turning Pringle first this way and then that before knocking his stumps flat. Many years later I asked Pringle about that delivery and he confirmed that it was the best that he had ever received and is adamant that neither he, nor anyone else, could have kept it out. The point is, I think, that a new batsman at the crease had little or no chance; only if you had been a while did your chances of survival increase.
Waqar's signature ball was an in-swinging yorker. He would set the batsman up by bowling outside the off stump and then produce a ball of maximum effort that zeroed in, with unerring accuracy, on the batsman's toes or on the base of the stumps. Wasim was less predictable and could reverse the ball both ways. He excelled at coming around the wicket, angling in to the right hander and then swinging it away. He had a slight change of action for his yorker. As he approached the crease he would swing his bowling arm back in an arc high above his head before he got into action. The problem was he also did this for his bouncer and so it was hazardous business predicting which was coming.
We had numerous team meetings about how to cope with these twin threats.
'Re-inforce your toe caps' said Robin Smith.
'Dont play the big cover drive to Waqar's in-swinger' said Gooch.
'Bat deep inside your crease' said another and
'Keep your feet out of the way and bat inside the line of the ball' offered someone else.
'Dont play the big cover drive to Waqar's in-swinger' said Gooch.
'Bat deep inside your crease' said another and
'Keep your feet out of the way and bat inside the line of the ball' offered someone else.
All were good suggestions but in the end each batsman had to sort things out for himself. I decided to keep a low backlift when the ball was reversing to keep out the yorkers, play the ball as late as possible and use the pace of the ball to score. I kept my footwork to the minimum and tried not to get my foot in the way of the in-swinger. It was almost like playing French cricket.
I had as much success as anybody and scored good half centuries at Headingley and The Oval. But like everyone else, I succumbed occasionally. In the second innings at the Oval, Waqar got me cheaply and bowled the quickest spell, through the air, that I have ever faced. I was in good company. He also dismissed David Gower that day with a wonderful in-swinger that david mis-picked and left, only to see it cannon into his stumps. It was his last innings for England.
In the end we had to admit that Wasim and Waqar had proved too good. It was no disgrace to lose.
Wonderful stuff. Brings back vivid memories of the last great pair of fast bowlers we have seen (so far)
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Both are undeniable greats. For me, I have never wanted an opposition bowler in my country's team so badly as Wasim. My favourite non-Australian bowler by a mile. He looked bloody dangerous every ball. He swung it at will and both ways. Watching him, you sensed the whole line-up could collapse if he got it better than usual. The way he'd conceal the ball and then give it at pace and with swing ...you REALLY felt sorry for the batsmen.
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Top_Cat
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I grew up wanting to be Waqar. My favourite fast bowler to watch by some distance. I'd heard all about him and how he missed the 1992 WC through injury. I remember seeing him demolish England in ODI's and Tests in 1992 as my first experience of overseas cricket watching (remember when Channel 9 used to do those?) and was awestruck by his raw pace and aggression. Loved every second. What sold me was his propensity to bowl full rather than short. Just made him seem more dangerous.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I completely agree with the sentiment. Inspite of all the hoop la around Wasim and the undoubted great bowler that he was, nothing could match the thrill and the anticipation of what was to come as Waqar started on his run up. I had never felt that way about any bowler since Dennins Lillee. Bowlers like these were at least as much the stars of the play irrespective of who was at the batting crease.
Even today, when there is an old footage being shown of Lillee or Waqar I will watch it irrespective of what else demands my time.