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The England Thread

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Doesn't the whole problem stem from the likes of mahmood,plunkett and bresnan not having enough experience of playing tough competitive county cricket for the last few seasons.These 3 bowlers have never been really consistent in the domestic game and it is through lack of bowling and inexperience.You look at the likes of clark and hussey who have matued,played plenty of domestic cricket and know their game and areas to score,or what areas to bowl.Lets take a look at Mahmood,Plunkett and Bresnan's Domestic One Day Record
Mahmood 109 wickets @25.52
Plunkett 52 wickets @ 34.55
Bresnan 78 wickets@ 39.20

This just goes to show that if these bowlers are struggling and not doing really well at county level why in the world would the selectors think they'd have a big impact straight away in international cricket.

Amjad Khan and Graham Onions also have average bowling performaces in the domestic one day game compared to their first class averages.Why are they getting picked for the one day game then?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Because lots of people perceive them as wicket-takers. And so assume they'll take wickets when they get picked for ODIs.

The likelihood of that is small.

And yet there've been enough cases of such a thing in the last 5-6 years to suggest that when the Khans and Onions' fall the way of the Plunketts and Mahmoods there'll be some more on the way.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Look the point im trying to make is that you dont have to be einstein to figure out that for whatever reasons, England have continually produced players that are good in one form and very poor in the other. Our best ODI players ever- Knight, Hick, Ealham, Mullally, Fairbrother and a few others were all players that never succeeded in test match cricket. It might not be the same for other countries, but IMO the English domestic system has to blame for the fact that English FC cricketers are clearly nowhere near good enough when it comes to producing players that can nudge and nurdle, innovate, run well between the wickets or can save a few runs in the field.
Well said yo, i've been saying it all along when it comes to arguments about England's ODI team. But it is weird why all these good test players couldn't & can't adapt to ODI given the amount of domestic ODI cricket that is played.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Partly because quantity and not always quality has been the object of the exercise (not that the former is in opposition to the latter, just that sometimes the latter has been neglected in pursuit of the former) and partly because some talents (hitting the ball on the ground being the most obvious in batting terms) which make massive improvements to a long-form player are hugely detrimental to the same batsman in the one-dayers (a few examples: Stephen Waugh, Slater, Vaughan, Laxman).

Not everyone who's good at long-form game can possibly also be good at one-dayers.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
The 2005 summer against Australia was nothing more than a miracle as ive said before. One must remember that only a few months before that they were thrashed 5-1 against SA with Vaughan as captain.
Totally disagree yo. The 2005 summer full-strenght ODI team of Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, KP, Freddie, Collingwood, G Jones, Giles, S Jones, Harmo, Gough (with the exception of Geraint & Gough) was close to one of the best ODI sides England had put together in a while and genuinely played good cricket that wasn't no fluke mate.

The SA series had jokers like Kabir Ali, Solanki, Hoggard (with all due respect since his OD bowling record is appauling) which would make any ODI side look bad.

If the side of 2005 had stayed together plus the addition of Dalrymple, Panesar, Bell Anderson, England's ODI side would look pretty good.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Is there a point in selecting players who have been proven to be useless in ODIs before? Solanki, Plunkett, Mahmood etc have been given so many opportunities, yet they are pencilled in instead of giving some young unproven quantity the chance of representing England. This is exactly the problem with the English selectors, they are completely predictable. I mean would a side with Sajid Mahmood and Vikram Solanki at the world cup fill you with any sort of hope or would you rather pick a few youngsters that have made an impression in domestic cricket recently. Looking purely at List A stats, ive selected a few players who look to be quite capable and surely couldnt be worse than the current lot:
Chris Taylor- Batting Average-51, 17 List A games, 21 years
Chris Benham- Batting Average-48.70, 12 List A games, 23 years
Billy Taylor-Bowling Average-24.94@4.34,111 List A games, 30 years
Tom Smith-Bowling Average-25.53@4.34, 12 List A games,21 Years(represented England at the academy)
Dimitri Mascarenhas-Bowling Average-24.14, 181 List A games, 29 Years

Moreover all of those players had good last seasons in List A cricket. Yes a few of them are inexperienced and really they could be absolutely abysmal given that ive never watched them play before, but again how could they be worse than players like Solanki etc who have been rubbish in ODI and list A cricket? If we really wanted to try failures from the past then where in the blue hell is ramprakash considering he is batting like a god in domestic cricket these days?

Fair enough can't really disagree here, but looking at the players out of the blue you have selected here, i have seen Mascarenhas & Smith & i'd say its crazy that he has not got a chance especially when Rikki Clarke is still around. Smith is young and may get a chance for England one-day but won't have him in the ODI side just yet.

The others TBH could probably be county wastes regardless of how good they were in List A cricket so i wouldn't read too much into the stats of the Taylor's & Benham.

Your call or Ramps is too bad, if they can pick a 36 year old to keep wicket over Read why not have a solid batsman like him to slot into the top order.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Broad Why? Does a List a record of 41@5.59 from 12 games really fill you with confidence?
Thats true, but stats don't tell the whole story you just had to see him bowl vs PAK last summer to see that he has potential to be a wicket-taking threat.


If i was picking a 15 man squad for the world cup tomorrow it would look something like this:

Ian Bell
Michael Vaughan©
Mark Ramprakash
Kevin Pietersen
Andrew Flintoff
Dimitri Mascrenhas
Jamie Dalrymple
Chris Read (w)
Chris Tremlett
Jon Lewis
Glen Chapple

Chris Taylor
Mal Loye
Tom Smith
Bill Taylor
Ive picked several of these players based on stats, but i honestly think that if you were going to pick someone who has played 12 OD games, why on earth would you pick Broad averaging 41@5.59 when you could pick Tom Smith averaging 25@4.34? Baffling really.
Whats up with Collingwood, Anderson, Panesar & Strauss, surely you can't leave them out. Otherwise i may have taken that XI with the possiblity of having Pothas in has keeper as well since he's a very solid batsman & a pretty safe keeper. I might go overall

Vaughan
Bell
Ramprakash
KP
Freddie
Collingwood
Pothas
Dalrymple
Lewis
Anderson
Panesar

Joyce/Loye
Chapple
Strauss
Mascarenhas
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Totally disagree yo. The 2005 summer full-strenght ODI team of Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, KP, Freddie, Collingwood, G Jones, Giles, S Jones, Harmo, Gough (with the exception of Geraint & Gough) was close to one of the best ODI sides England had put together in a while and genuinely played good cricket that wasn't no fluke mate.

The SA series had jokers like Kabir Ali, Solanki, Hoggard (with all due respect since his OD bowling record is appauling) which would make any ODI side look bad.

If the side of 2005 had stayed together plus the addition of Dalrymple, Panesar, Bell Anderson, England's ODI side would look pretty good.
With the exception of Strauss, Vaughan, Collingwood, G Jones, Giles, S Jones, Harmison...

All are (\were) pretty much the same in terms of joker-level as Kabir Ali, Solanki and Hoggard.

And Anderson and Bell are hardly much better.

Fact is, England only have 3 good ODI players (Trescothick, Pietersen, Flintoff) and even they've virtually never played together.

To call Strauss and Collingwood good when referring to the summer of 2005 (both did virtually nothing against Australia and hoovered-up the easy pickings against Bangladesh) is clutching at straws indeed. Vaughan and Harmison did better than they normally have, but in Harmison's case it was short-lived and in Vaughan's we'll soon find-out whether it was (and my money's on it being so).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Being a bit harsh on Kumble & Vettori
Seriously, when was the last time Kumble won many games?

Don't bother answering that, I'll answer it for you: 1999

Since then he's been abysmal by his previous standards. Harbhajan has been way better since 2000\01.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Thats true, but stats don't tell the whole story you just had to see him bowl vs PAK last summer to see that he has potential to be a wicket-taking threat.
So did Plunkett and Kabir Ali not so long ago.

Long time that lasted.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
We did?

Where on Earth were there these superior wicketkeeper-batsmen in the domestic game? I think we can now fairly safely say Prior is patently not superior, he's even worse, and Davies (who I'm hoping will be superior) has only been playing the last 2 seasons, and I highly doubt anyone with any sense was thinking seriously of picking 19 or 20 (depending on 2005 or 2006) year-olds for Tests.

Jones did enough in the first period to keep his place - he patently did not in the second, and was quite rightly dropped. Averaging 28 is disappointing for someone with his ability, but people have had not-so-great starts to their Test careers before now. I thought, right up to that Pakistan tour, that Jones had potential, and was worth persevering with. Now, I don't think he does, and I hope he's played his last Test, because I can't see a fault which has been around for such a long time being coached out of him now.

But please, God, don't let Matthew Prior play 12 Tests!
I said 'superior wicket keepers'. Im pretty sure you could pick out any jim and gary from domestic cricket that can keep and they'd average at least 20 odd with the bat and their keeping would be far better than jones'. Chris Read is a case in point.
Bottom line was that Jones was picked for his batting and his batting alone, the fact that he could keep was supposed to be a bonus. Averaging 25 odd with the bat after your first full series is simply not good enough then.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
In all previous correspondance you said Ealham was pretty average because you thought (wrongly) that he'd never had his figures damaged by bowling in the last 10 overs and so should have had an economy-rate of under 4. Yet I then showed quite clearly that if you knock-out overs in the last 10, he DID have an economy-rate under 4. Had he been handled better, he'd probably be not too far behind Gavin Larsen's class.
Ealham was not very good as you seemed to rate him. and Fraser was certainly better and should have played ahead of him. Nonetheless for the while that he played he routinely did a decent job which is more than most other English bowlers have in the last decade and a half. And any fast bowler who doesnt bowl in the last 10 in ODIs deserves to have his record tarnished rather than made to look better.

Smith wasn't that much worse against spin than Stewart. Are you saying he wasn't Test-class because he was pretty poor against spin (especially when first coming in)? Smith, in any case, was good enough to succeed against average spinners and there were few top-quality in his day so it's hardly surprising that he had a (relatively lengthy) successful period.
Have you seen Smith bat? Even the most average of spinners like Tim May and Raju had him tied in knots. Stewart wasnt the best, but at least he was good enough to score runs against average spinners and moreover kept his place in the side as a wicket keeper.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
That was a poor decision, no doubt about it, though I can understand Atherton's reasons, but ironically, of course, it had no immidiate effect - he was still playing well for another year.
No immediate effect? Hick never scored a century against Australia, he never even came close to doing so after that. You dont think that master sledger Ian Healy didnt remind him constantly when he batted how he cried after Atherton's declaration? It certainly had an effect on his confidence, youd have to be a complete fool if you didnt think that someone like Hick who was already a quite fragile personality was having to play with a captain that seemed to care less about him as well as the coach and management. everything takes its toll. its almost like saying Trescothick didnt have any mental frailities because he scored a century on return last summer.
Furthermore your argument was this:
"Oh, come on! How could they have been handled better?"
Whether or not it had immediate impact on him is rather irrelevant because it is basic fact that he wasnt handled properly.

How on Earth was Hick being dropped for a poor series such a terrible decision? You can hardly argue that leaving him out at the tail-end of 1991 and 1992 was a bad decision - you can't just go on picking and picking players who're averaging in the teens.
Firstly he was dropped in 93 after the 2nd Ashes test at Lords. This despite the fact that he was the only competent cricketer in India, played brilliantly against SL and also scored 64 in the innings before he was dropped. I guess of course averaging 45 odd in his last 6 tests werent good enough for the English management. Surprisingly enough they recalled him against after 2 tests and he scored more runs.

Nor can you argue that being dropped (and Illingworth's words) was a bad decision in 1995, as he responded with a brilliant century..
Hick was dropped in 95?

Nor do I really think his run in 1996 merited anything other than the axe - and thereafter he was rarely if ever a first-choice, and like Solanki now, that's the price you pay for past failures. Even when Duncan Fletcher backed him to the hilt (despite, at the end, Vaughan's case being overwhelmingly superior - I was positively tearing my hair out in Sri Lanka) he still couldn't deliver.
Oh yes what clear logic that is. Here is someone averaging 45 over the last 3 years, the best out of all the English batsman including Stewart, Atherton, Thorpe and all the others that were consistently playing for England, why dont we drop him after 6 poor innings. because of course 3 years of top quality cricket against Ambrose, Walsh, Benjamin, Warne, Pollock, Mcdermott, Hughes and Donald counts for absolutely nothing. By your logic, everyone from Tendulkar to Richards and everyone else would have been dropped multiple times in their career.
Even after he was dropped for what should have been merely a kick on the backside, he didnt play test cricket for 2 years(and ODI cricket for about a year), despite scoring prolifically in FC cricket arguably in his very prime. Logic?

IMO nothing else could've been done with Hick - for a series of reasons, he just did not have what Test cricket takes. That didn't stop him being probably our 2nd-best ODI player of the modern era.
Err and despite being the 2nd best English ODI player of the modern era, how many times was he dropped in that form? Even in 96 when he was dropped in both forms, he averaged 41 against India in the texaco trophy, the series just before that. Really i dont think Hick could have been handled any worse than he was. Yes when he was picked in the subcontinent in 2000-01 there were many including me who were praying for him to be dropped as it would tarnish his reputation even further considering that he was well past it. However for most of his career he was never ever given any sort of confidence in the side, certainly dropping him after a handful of poor innings was quite a joke.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Totally disagree yo. The 2005 summer full-strenght ODI team of Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, KP, Freddie, Collingwood, G Jones, Giles, S Jones, Harmo, Gough (with the exception of Geraint & Gough) was close to one of the best ODI sides England had put together in a while and genuinely played good cricket that wasn't no fluke mate.
and the likes of Harmison, Strauss, Vaughan, Collingwood, S. Jones hold such fantastic ODI records dont they?
In fact all of them bar Harmison failed miserably in the 2005 summer.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Being a bit harsh on Kumble & Vettori
am i? Both of them average in the 30s in ODI cricket, in fact the 2 of them have their records massively inflated against minnows. Vettori for example averages over 30 against all teams bar WI. Wicket taking?



Don't think he has totally lost it, in the SCG test he was getting fair inswing to Hayden & Langer & outswing to Ponting.
His action is more open chested than it used to be and its certainly the reason why he gets less away swing than he used to. certainly needs some work done with his action.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Fair enough can't really disagree here, but looking at the players out of the blue you have selected here, i have seen Mascarenhas & Smith & i'd say its crazy that he has not got a chance especially when Rikki Clarke is still around. Smith is young and may get a chance for England one-day but won't have him in the ODI side just yet.
Whats the difference between Broad and Smith? They've both played as much domestic cricket, Smith is in fact older than Broad and has a much better record. Id rather have Smith in the ODI side than Broad.
 

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