The end of the road for SA and my last thread on proteas.

[wpdavid]

I'm not sure Amla and Prince were initially selected completely on merit, however there's no doubt that right now they're both in the side on merit, particularly Prince.

You'd better add Kallis to that particular list - averaged about 25 after his first 15 tests, so clearly not in the side on merit. Granted he's worth his palce now though.

 

[Protean]

Sure I will move to England just for you. That a very good attitude you have there but ONLY PROBLEM is that is why SA stinks cause no one whines enough anymore and the people that do are told to move abroad. Enoy earning rands and suportingth the chokers.

Well, I don't think SA does stink personally. It's an amazing, beautiful country with plenty of opportunity if you work hard and don't hang on to every minute perceived injustice. So yeah, I will thanks

 

[Top_Cat]

You'd better add Kallis to that particular list - averaged about 25 after his first 15 tests, so clearly not in the side on merit. Granted he's worth his palce now though.

Excellent example. Was under achieving for some time with bat and ball.

 

[aussie]

Yet despite not knowing what his FC record was, you stated that he wasn't picked for the Test squad on merit.

Ha, clearly you can't read..

 

[Prince EWS]

Ha, clearly you can't read..

It'd probably help if you typed in English sometimes.

 

[aussie]

Really? How could you tell from that?

Indeed. Nothing from JP in that game or any ODI he played between 04-08 looked like any special talent. He always came across to me like another Justin Ontong style token black selection..

 

[Dissector]

There have been several white South Africans who have been given plenty of tests despite consistently mediocre performances. Dippenaar and Nel come to mind. Is there any non-white cricketer in ,say, the last five years who has been given an extended run and not performed? I am struggling to think of one. Frankly a lot of the whining about selection seems to be an excuse to avoid facing the fact that the South African team is just not good enough and seems to freeze every time they come near the no.1 spot. They have done it in ODI's during World Cups and in the last year they have done it in tests.

 

[popepouri]

I think we forget that this team beat Australia away and beat them by an innings. They played poorly. England played better.

There's only one pedestrian in the team and he'll probably get the axe for the next test.

 

[BoyBrumby]

So, which (white) SA players are Afrikaners (raised in Afrikaans) and which ones are Anglo-white (and thus raised in English)?
Judging by their names, Morkel, Steyn, De Wet and Van der Merwe are Afrikaners, but Boucher or Kallis? No idea really...

I've been wondering about this for a while. What do they speak on the field? Do Cape-blacks (coloured) speak Afrikaans? Which languages does Ntini speak? Did he have to learn to speak Afrikaans?

Steyn, despite his non-Anglo surname, is actually an English speaker, his folks being Rhodesian emigres. He doesn't even speak Afrikaans, apparently, much to the surprise of his team-mates as Neil Manthorp relates:

"The most often repeated anecdote concerning his first-class debut is the one about how his team-mates tried hard to conspire with him against English-speaking opposition. Anybody called Dale Steyn, from the Afrikaans backwater of Phalaborwa, would be fluent in the language, of course. Not....his Zimbabwean, English-speaking heritage was, to say the least, unexpected for his new team-mates."

 

[Goughy]

So, which (white) SA players are Afrikaners (raised in Afrikaans) and which ones are Anglo-white (and thus raised in English)?
Judging by their names, Morkel, Steyn, De Wet and Van der Merwe are Afrikaners, but Boucher or Kallis? No idea really...

I've been wondering about this for a while. What do they speak on the field? Do Cape-blacks (coloured) speak Afrikaans? Which languages does Ntini speak? Did he have to learn to speak Afrikaans?

I missed this post originally. It is hard to judge by the names. As said, Steyn is English speaking, Donald was only Afrikaans etc. It is possible to make a guess for most from names but it isnt 100% foolproof. It is a little easier if you know the school they went to. Eg I know Jacques Rudolph went to Affies which is an Afrikaans high school

Boucher I believe is English speaking.

You may be suprised to know that the largest demographic that speaks Afrikaans in the home are not Afrikaners. It is the Coloured population.

EDIT- Just checked Wiki to confirm the numbers

Afrikaans is the first language of over 80% of Coloured South Africans (3.1 million people) and approximately 60% of White South Africans(2.5 million). Around 200,000 black South Africans speak it as their first language

Nowadays most Afrikaners (I know of at least) speak decent-good English and most English speakers speak some (from none to good) Afrikaans. Most other ethnic groups in urban centers speak both as you need to if you want to work though it may not be the language of the home. I would guess that Ntini spoke Xhosa in the home.

 

[Jono]

Re: Rohit.

He's from Mumbai.

He was chosen in 2007 for ODIs and T20s because he looked like he could bat, and damn well.

Only in later 2008/2009 did he start to fall away, as many young batsmen do.

 

[Stapel]

Steyn, despite his non-Anglo surname, is actually an English speaker, his folks being Rhodesian emigres. He doesn't even speak Afrikaans, apparently, much to the surprise of his team-mates as Neil Manthorp relates:

"The most often repeated anecdote concerning his first-class debut is the one about how his team-mates tried hard to conspire with him against English-speaking opposition. Anybody called Dale Steyn, from the Afrikaans backwater of Phalaborwa, would be fluent in the language, of course. Not....his Zimbabwean, English-speaking heritage was, to say the least, unexpected for his new team-mates."

Even more surprising when realising that his middle name is Willem, the most Dutch of Dutch names.

 

[aussie]

There have been several white South Africans who have been given plenty of tests despite consistently mediocre performances. Dippenaar and Nel come to mind. Is there any non-white cricketer in ,say, the last five years who has been given an extended run and not performed? I am struggling to think of one. Frankly a lot of the whining about selection seems to be an excuse to avoid facing the fact that the South African team is just not good enough and seems to freeze every time they come near the no.1 spot. They have done it in ODI's during World Cups and in the last year they have done it in tests.

- Nel certainly doesn't fall into this quality. He actually did have a peak period between 2004/05 to 2006/07 where he was brilliant againts AUS for example. He just fell off in recent years - the saffies dropped him - then he went Kolpak.

- The chocking thing doesn't relate anymore. They did beat AUS in a test series last year, plus won in ENG for the first time since readmission. Between 2006-2009 they where the form test team on the planet, its just ATM the decline in the bowling attack is affected them.

 

[Goughy]

Yeah Nel was special for a period. Cranking it 150+ against WI in 04/05. Not many people in the world let alone SA could have done that.

 

[grecian]

Nel very similar to Harmison IMHO, on occasions looked world class but on many others looked a liability.

 

[aussie]

Yeah Nel was special for a period. Cranking it 150+ against WI in 04/05. Not many people in the world let alone SA could have done that.

Word in that same year as well, i remembering him againts ENG in a bowling Thorpe in a test in Centurion with an absolute beauty.

 

[stephen]

Yeah Nel was special for a period. Cranking it 150+ against WI in 04/05. Not many people in the world let alone SA could have done that.

Was also SAs best bowler against Oz in 05/06 in Oz. Ntini was better at home though.

 

[Dissector]

- Nel certainly doesn't fall into this quality. He actually did have a peak period between 2004/05 to 2006/07 where he was brilliant againts AUS for example. He just fell off in recent years - the saffies dropped him - then he went Kolpak.

- The chocking thing doesn't relate anymore. They did beat AUS in a test series last year, plus won in ENG for the first time since readmission. Between 2006-2009 they where the form test team on the planet, its just ATM the decline in the bowling attack is affected them.

Nel had one good year in 2005 but was mediocre both before and after. I think the Harmison comparison is a good one and IMO Nel has never seemed the type of bowler who would build a successful test career. Yet selectors continued persisting with him till as late as 2008. There seems to be an undercurrent in this thread that if only selectors were given a free hand there is all this awesome white talent which would take South Africa to no.1. The careers of Dippenar, Nel and Morkel suggest otherwise.

As for South Africa unable to handle the pressure of being no.1 I think it's revealing how immediately after they won in Australia they faltered in the return series which would have established them as the undisputed no.1 team. A big win over England now would also help bring them back to no.1 and they seem to be faltering again. They appear to find it tough to play as favourites against good sides.

 

[silentstriker]

He was chosen in 2007 for ODIs and T20s because he looked like he could bat, and damn well.

Only in later 2008/2009 did he start to fall away, as many young batsmen do.

But he's from Mumbai so he was obviously picked because of that and picked early just so we'd have players from Mumbai in the team. He justified his place later.

Need to start an end of the road for Indian cricket due to Mumbai thread.

 

[aussie]

Nel had one good year in 2005 but was mediocre both before and after.

Nah man much longer than that Nel at his peak based on what i remember was from WI 2003/04 (when he really troubled Brian Lara) to AUS 2005/06 (when he was the best bowler on the tour to AUS) where averaged 26. Thats a good 3 years, after then he fell of, then SA dropepd him then he went Kolpak.

I think the Harmison comparison is a good one and IMO Nel has never seemed the type of bowler who would build a successful test career.

Dont think you saw him bowl againts ENG & AUS during the period i showed above then. He certainly looked like was going headed for big things, maybe not into a world-class bowler - but certainly a a very consistent test bowler.

Yet selectors continued persisting with him till as late as 2008.

SA didn't have any better alternatives at the time. Plus as i showed above he was passed his best days.

There seems to be an undercurrent in this thread that if only selectors were given a free hand there is all this awesome white talent which would take South Africa to no.1. The careers of Dippenar, Nel and Morkel suggest otherwise.

As i said Nel isn't in this group.

- Dippenaar i would be suprised if many SA ever referred to as a "awesome talent". He was a average test player who was given some chances & failed. Although he did at times in ODIs was a solid opener.

- Morke potentially is obvious, whether he never fullfills it is another question. I certainly dont think SA have many better than him in the bowling stocks whether white or black to replace him.

As for South Africa unable to handle the pressure of being no.1 I think it's revealing how immediately after they won in Australia they faltered in the return series which would have established them as the undisputed no.1 team. A big win over England now would also help bring them back to no.1 and they seem to be faltering again. They appear to find it tough to play as favourites against good sides.

As i said the reason why SA lost in the return series in AUS was because the bowling attack was in decline. The main reason why SA where the form test team between 2006-2009 was because they had a 5-man attack of Steyn/Ntini/Morkel/Kallis/Harris who where all bowling very well together.

Ntini then hit a steady decline & Morkel has not lived up to his talent as yet, although he has been very impressive to date againts England.