The class of mid 00's

[Coronis]

This has to be a joke

Maybe, but you two have turned this thread into one. A sad one at that.

 

[honestbharani]

That's the point. Johnson didn't have 60 odd mediocre tests. He had some rank ordinary tests mixed in with brilliant tests. Check out these:

1st Test, New Zealand tour of Australia at Brisbane, Nov 20-23 2008 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
1st Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Perth, Dec 17-21 2008 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
1st Test, Australia tour of South Africa at Johannesburg, Feb 26-Mar 2 2009 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
(During his terrible tour of England) 4th Test, Australia tour of England and Scotland at Leeds, Aug 7-9 2009 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
2nd Test, West Indies tour of Australia at Adelaide, Dec 4-8 2009 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
2nd Test, Australia tour of New Zealand at Hamilton, Mar 27-31 2010 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
3rd Test, England tour of Australia at Perth, Dec 16-19 2010 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
3rd Test, South Africa tour of Australia at Perth, Nov 30-Dec 3 2012 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
2nd Test, Sri Lanka tour of Australia at Melbourne, Dec 26-28 2012 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo (the batsmen who retired hurt or were absent hurt in this match were all injured off Johnson's bowling)

They are excluding his 8 test purple patch Ashes and South Africa series (which is over 10% of his career).

So with those 9 tests and the 8 tests of his purple patch, he had 17 tests out of 73 (around 1/4) where he took huge bags of wickets. The rest of Johnson's career was a mix of everything from good to very poor. The guy took 313 wickets over 73 tests. He wasn't the best bowler ever, but he certainly wasn't crap for the majority of his career.

Given the hype around him, Johnson didn't live up to expectations (outside his purple patch) but he certainly had a very good career. Not many bowlers take over 300 wickets at an average under 30.

I am not arguing any of that. I was talking about this proviso or asterisk being added to performances against what a few posters here wanna qualify as the "less than at his best" Johnson. My point was that his best was such a short short period of time that it was the exception than the norm and that he was an average to good test bowler overall. And that is where he deserves to be rated. Certainly not claiming he was crap. That is just the Barmy Army's job and he has responded pretty well to that in the 2014 Ashes I would say.

 

[Adders]

Certainly not claiming he was crap. That is just the Barmy Army's job and he has responded pretty well to that in the 2014 Ashes I would say.

We never said he was crap......we said he was shite.

 

[Black_Warrior]

It's not his fault, but it will inevitably count against him when the other contemporaries he's up against have similar (maybe not S/R though) records but also have trophies to show for it.

The question is this, had India not won the WC 2011, would Tendulkar still be an ODI great?

If your answer is yes, then same should apply to AB.

I think 'performance' in a World Cup is more important when it comes to assessing ATG LO players because actually winning a tournament depends on a lot of other factors.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Yes but is 50 AVG that necessary A parameter? Would you rate Amla an ATG or not or even Cook or AB?

The 50 Average on it's own might be an arbitrary parameter but if you look at the era Amla played in and it coincides with the YKs and Sangas and Chanderpauls who comfortably averaged over 50, then it's kinda hard to call Amla an ATG without averaging 50.

 

[harsh.ag]

The question is this, had India not won the WC 2011, would Tendulkar still be an ODI great?

If your answer is yes, then same should apply to AB.

I think 'performance' in a World Cup is more important when it comes to assessing ATG LO players because actually winning a tournament depends on a lot of other factors.

Yeah. Perhaps look at performances in WC KO games though.

 

[RK_123]

AB is the best among the mid 2000s all formats combined.

 

[Gnske]

Fair to say Hussey is behind the other names debuted in mid 2000s.

This is objectively wrong.

 

[_00_deathscar]

The question is this, had India not won the WC 2011, would Tendulkar still be an ODI great?

If your answer is yes, then same should apply to AB.

I think 'performance' in a World Cup is more important when it comes to assessing ATG LO players because actually winning a tournament depends on a lot of other factors.

Maybe its because I don't follow SA cricket quite as closely as Indian cricket, but I feel like Sachin's had more defining moments, and a weaker supporting cast (theoretically at least, compared to the South African stars - who have underperformed very badly).

So regardless of whether Sachin had won the World Cup 2011, he'd have been considered an ODI great for his performances.

 

[SeamUp]

So with Smith, ABDV, Clarke, KP retired and Cook set to follow and Amla not far off. Amla's stats will be filthy to dig up in recent years. Better than Cook's but I think this home summer will be his last.

Not too bad an era for me. They had something serious to follow though.

Retirement ages though 32-34/35 much younger than previous groups.

 

[stephen]

So with Smith, ABDV, Clarke, KP retired and Cook set to follow and Amla not far off. Amla's stats will be filthy to dig up in recent years. Better than Cook's but I think this home summer will be his last.

Not too bad an era for me. They had something serious to follow though.

Retirement ages though 32-34/35 much younger than previous groups.

If you retire at 33 you can realistically play in the IPL for 4 years before you are completely Cooked .

 

[OverratedSanity]

So with Smith, ABDV, Clarke, KP retired and Cook set to follow and Amla not far off. Amla's stats will be filthy to dig up in recent years. Better than Cook's but I think this home summer will be his last.

Not too bad an era for me. They had something serious to follow though.

Retirement ages though 32-34/35 much younger than previous groups.

An ATVG generation imo.

 

[_00_deathscar]

An ATVG generation imo.

Yep - ATVG for tests (ABDV is ATG I reckon, at the very least borderline, and Amla has a pretty decent case too), but those two are also ATG ODIs.

 

[vcs]

I'm finding it very hard to decide in which order I'd rate Cook, Smith, Amla, De Villiers, Clarke and Pietersen. I guess the first two shouldn't be compared to the last 4 anyway.

So Smith > Cook for great/very good opening batsmen who made their debut in the mid-2000s.

It's nearly impossible to split the other 4 though, for me.

 

[trundler]

I'll go De Villiers, Pietersen, Clarke=Amla

 

[OverratedSanity]

ABDV is ATG I reckon, at the very least borderline

DIdn't ton up enough for me. Definitely the closest of the bunch though, along with Smith, who's the best opener I've seen.

 

[trundler]

ABDV underachieved IMO. Smith with a crooked technique averaged almost 50 opening whereas ABDV who had a faultless technique which allowed him to slow down and accelerate so fluently averaged about the same. He was the most talented of the lot IMO. Don't think he was any less talented than Lara or Ponting. Choking genes I assume.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Took longer to find a batting rhythm in tests than some others - knew the pattern of the game in white ball cricket from very early on. Bit too long opening probably affected his early career too.

 

[harsh.ag]

Will take the order ABdV, Clarke, Smith, Pietersen, Amla, Cook

 

[_00_deathscar]

Took longer to find a batting rhythm in tests than some others - knew the pattern of the game in white ball cricket from very early on. Bit too long opening probably affected his early career too.

Yea, apart from a good 2005, had a poor first four years (2004, 2006, 2007). Averaged 57+ from there.

Also opened in 32 tests, which has hurt his average.

Batting 3 onwards, averages 54.34, with 19 tons in 96 tests which is okay.