The captaincy

[cnerd123]

Has anyone actually tried bowling whilst also captaining a game?

It's bloody hard work. Not only are you suppose to dedicate mental and physical resources to the actual act of bowling, but then when you aren't bowling you need to be rotating the other bowlers around, setting fields, coming up with strategies, watching your over-rate, and genuinely figuring out how you're going to marshal your team to actually win the game.

Bowling and captaincy are both full-time jobs when you're out in the field. Taking them both on at the same time is ridiculously hard. I can understand why the bowlers are left to focus on their bowling, and are sent to the outfield to rest in between spells, while the captaincy is all handled by 1 guy as he parks himself at slip / some position inside the circle. I can even understand why 'keepers can be good captains - that job is just very physically demanding, not mentally, so if they are fit enough they can handle leading the side too

 

[oblongballs]

The more you listen to Warne commentate the more you're glad he was never captain.

You know I have to agree with this. Through his playing days I always heard that he was the best captain Australia never had, which was weird because he seemed to constantly be in the wrong, the banned substances the bookies etc. But I thought, ok fair enough, maybe he was a tactician...and yet on commentary he speaks a load of...well you know.

 

[neville cardus]

It would be interesting to list bowling averages with and without the captaincy, and to see how the drop-off (if there is one, which is by no means certain) compares with the well-established decline in batsmen when they take on the mantle of leadership. I know that I tend to bowl better when I'm captaining, for the simple reason that I'm thinking more, and am more engaged, and watching more closely, than when I'm air-castling at third man between overs.

 

[Starfighter]

for the simple reason that I'm thinking more, and am more engaged, and watching more closely, than when I'm air-castling at third man between overs.

Yes, another person who does this. About the 32nd (of 45) overs when the captain's let the game drift is usually when I zone out and begin forgetting I'm on a cricket field.

Also fielding fine leg (you have a third man?) between overs is terrible, even if you have a 20 metre runup like mine. It's simply such a large area to cover, especially if the keeper lets one through for byes. Your no.5 or 6, if they are non-bowling, should field there. Unless there's a collapse they'll get plenty of rest before they have to go in.

Funnily enough I've only had bowling captains in grade matches, except for the scores 8 + takes 0 or 1/15 off three bowling 'allrounder'. I'd like to think I'd make a good captain but I couldn't handle the responsibility of screwing up.

 

[Starfighter]

For the record: bowling averages when captain (not captain in brackets) - and batting when pretensions to allrounder status. Some pretty generous ones in there, down around 1 1/2 wpm, which is perhaps too generous. Very few without at least modest batting ability (>20).

Allen: 25.26 (33.79) - batting 16.93 (31.93)
Armstrong: 24.47 (35.81) - batting 56.00 (35.66) - more of a batting allrounder. The differences are remarkable.
Atkinson: 23.00 (48.72) - " " 46.50 (24.05) - over twice the wickets and runs in less than half the matches as captain.
Bedi: 24.82 (31.28)
Benaud: 25.78 (28.59) - 22.66 (26.64)
Botham: 33.08 (27.93) - 13.14 (36.74) - and he was a terrible captain too.
Brown: 30.76 (31.66) - 24.23 (28.12)
Cave: 44.66 (41.94)
Douglas: 30.91 (42.75) - 29.40 (28.00)
Flintoff: 34.44 (32.49) - 33.23 (31.53)
Goddard: 36.33 (23.77) - 46.93 (27.92) - bowled much less
Herath: 21.33 (28.69) - four against Zim and Bang of five as captain
Holder: 39.89 (35.37) - 27.03 (34.54) - a real specialist captain like Sammy.
Illingworth: 35.96 (27.78) - 28.62 (16.11) - he tended to under bowl himself and focussed more on batting later in his career.
Imran: 20.26 (25.53) - 52.34 (25.43) - batted much more later of course.
Intikhab: 31.74 (39.15) - 22.51 (22.12)
Johnson: 28.10 (29.80)
Kapil: 26.35 (30.78) - 31.72 (30.82)
Kumble: 39.49 (28.73)
Mohammad: 29.60 (28.87) - 33.38 (42.06)
Noble: 24.03 (25.33) - 38.15 (25.12)
Pollock: 21.36 (23.68) - 41.58 (29.92)
Reid: 30.12 (38.96) - 34.33 (31.68)
Sammy: 39.61 (27.74) - 22.43 (19.40) - became a specialist captain near the end.
Shakib: 33.43 (32.09) - 38.23 (40.88)
Sobers: 34.00 (34.07) - 58.80 (57.01)
Streak: 34.80 (25.81) - 35.17 (16.01) - bowling fell off remarkably near end of career.
Venkat: 64.57 (34.77)
Vettori: 33.38 (34.82) - 39.12 (29.62)
Wasim: 23.35 (23.71) - 24.16 (22.02)
Waqar: 23.47 (23.57)
Walsh: 25.71 (24.19)
Willis: 21.59 (26.53)

The careers of Gilligan, White are not long enough to really consider. About five of each is my minimum.

Since Benaud the closest Australia have had to a bowling captain is Border. The stereotype seems to be the most entrenched there. And, if anything it's become more entrenched worldwide in more recent times.

I'd be interested to see how well established the pattern for batsmen actually is, although they'd have a much larger sample size.

 

[neville cardus]

For the record: bowling averages when captain (not captain in brackets)

Willis: 21.59 (26.53)
Pollock: 21.36 (23.68)
Wasim: 23.35 (23.71)

Well, well...

 

[neville cardus]

For the record: bowling averages when captain (not captain in brackets)

Willis: 21.59 (26.53)
Pollock: 21.36 (23.68)
Wasim: 23.35 (23.71)

Others, courtesy of David North:

Sobers 34.00 (34.07)
Benaud 25.78 (28.59)
Vettori 33.38 (34.82)
Imran Khan 20.26 (25.53)
Bedi 24.82 (31.28)
Kapil Dev 26.35 (30.78)

 

[smash84]

Interesting analysis, and the results are counter intuitive to what we probably have been thinking. It seems that pretty much everyone seems to be doing better personally when being captain? But could it also be due to the fact that being captain they now recognize the optimal time for them to bowl? But interesting nonetheless

 

[Dendarii]

Could the bowlers doing better when captain have something to do with it possibly being more likely that they'll be given the captaincy during the peak period of their career? They'll generally only be put in charge once they've established themselves in the side, and by the time their performances start trailing off towards the end of their careers they'll often have handed the reins over to someone else.

 

[Dendarii]

For the record: bowling averages when captain (not captain in brackets) - and batting when pretensions to allrounder status.

Allen: 25.26 (33.79) - batting 16.93 (31.93)
Armstrong: 24.47 (35.81) - batting 56.00 (35.66) - more of a batting allrounder. The differences are remarkable.
Benaud: 25.78 (28.59) - "" 22.66 (26.64)
Botham: 33.08 (27.93) - 13.14 (36.74) - and he was a terrible captain too.
Brown: 30.76 (31.66) - 24.23 (28.12)
Douglas: 30.91 (42.75) - 29.40 (28.00)
Illingworth: 35.96 (27.78) - 28.62 (16.11) - he tended to under bowl himself an focussed more on batting later in his career.
Intikhab: 31.74 (39.15) - 22.51 (22.12)
Johnson: 28.10 (29.80)
Pollock: 21.36 (23.68)
Wasim: 23.35 (23.71) - 24.16 (22.02)
Waqar: 23.47 (23.57)
Walsh: 25.71 (24.19)
Willis: 21.59 (26.53)

The careers of Gilligan, White are not long enough to really consider. About five of each is my minimum.


I'd be interested to see how well established the pattern for batsmen actually is, although they'd have a much larger sample size.

Just to add Pollock's batting averages - 41.58 as captain, 29.92 when not.

 

[SeamUp]

Could the bowlers doing better when captain have something to do with it possibly being more likely that they'll be given the captaincy during the peak period of their career? They'll generally only be put in charge once they've established themselves in the side, and by the time their performances start trailing off towards the end of their careers they'll often have handed the reins over to someone else.

That is what my response was going to be.

 

[neville cardus]

Could the bowlers doing better when captain have something to do with it possibly being more likely that they'll be given the captaincy during the peak period of their career? They'll generally only be put in charge once they've established themselves in the side, and by the time their performances start trailing off towards the end of their careers they'll often have handed the reins over to someone else.

That wouldn't explain why the opposite is so often true of batsmen.

 

[Starfighter]

Could the bowlers doing better when captain have something to do with it possibly being more likely that they'll be given the captaincy during the peak period of their career? They'll generally only be put in charge once they've established themselves in the side, and by the time their performances start trailing off towards the end of their careers they'll often have handed the reins over to someone else.

Batsmen are also often given the captaincy in their peak period, perhaps they tend to hold onto the captaincy more easily and further into their decline like Ponting. But you've perhaps not that convincing an explanation.

 

[SeamUp]

Some batsmen who averaged more when they captained than when not captain.

Such a large sample size. More chance of both either way being more.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Captaincy/CaptaincyVsNonCaptain.asp

Atapattu, Atherton, Border, Bradman, G.Chappell, I. Chappell, M.Clarke, Congdon, A.Cook, M.Crowe, Dexter, Dhoni, Du Plessis, Fleming, Flintoff, Gatting, Gayle, T.Goddard, Gooch, Hanif Mohammed, Hassett, Hooper, Imran Khan, Inzamam, Jayawardene, Kohli, Lara, Lloyd, Matthews, McCullum, McGlew, Misbah, Mushfiqur, S.Pollock, Ranatunga, J.Reid, Saleem Malik, Sangakkara, Simpson, M.Smith, S.Smith, Sobers, Streak, Taibu, B.Taylor, H.Taylor, R.Taylor, Vettori, S.Waugh, Williamson, Wright, Wyatt, Zaheer Abbas

I think irrespective of a bowling or a batting captain you need to be able to last.If your performances in either discipline fall away your captaincy won't just be questioned but your place in the side too. If you stay in the captaincy then there is a good chance you are doing something right and performing. It may not be better than when you were not captain but when it is 51 ave. plays 47 ave. does it really matter if the team is doing well ?

So in essence I don't see the need for a change in mind-set for who is captain. It depends on the individual and team and what stage they are in their careers. Just that who ever the best captain is who can perform still is what is important. They know once the burden is on them they need to perform.

A captain will also be judged not only by his performances but also his teams. So that then opens another can of why batsman have tended to be more captains because in the environment they feel most comfortable to do it and are wanted to do it by their team mates. So basically team dynamics. If you focusing on your bowling and doing well but not being able to set the right fields or get your fellow bowlers to help you achieve your goal you are in trouble as a side and as a captain.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Warne captaincy, declaring on twenty.

 

[fredfertang]

Interesting analysis, and the results are counter intuitive to what we probably have been thinking. It seems that pretty much everyone seems to be doing better personally when being captain? But could it also be due to the fact that being captain they now recognize the optimal time for them to bowl? But interesting nonetheless

Reckon you're on the money their Smali

.. and perhaps more importantly when not to bowl?

 

[Furball]

Having a bowler as captain with the volume of cricket played these days would be more disruptive to the team because of the risk of injuries and bowlers needing to be rotated to manage their workloads.

Most of the fast bowlers I can think of who would stand a chance at captaincy in terms of seniority - Anderson, Broad, Steyn, Starc, Philander, Southee - have all had spells injured in the last couple of years (unsure whether Southee fits into this, Boult certainly does).

 

[Red]

I’m sure when Warne commentates on tactics he imagines we have:

Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Marty
Waugh
Hussey
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath

out there, rather than the reality...

 

[oblongballs]

Having a bowler as captain with the volume of cricket played these days would be more disruptive to the team because of the risk of injuries and bowlers needing to be rotated to manage their workloads.

Most of the fast bowlers I can think of who would stand a chance at captaincy in terms of seniority - Anderson, Broad, Steyn, Starc, Philander, Southee - have all had spells injured in the last couple of years (unsure whether Southee fits into this, Boult certainly does).

Jimmy and Broad are both nearing the ends of their careers, why would they be considered for captaincy? The same goes for Steyn. Philander does indeed have fitness problems but more due to his belly looking like a life raft. Southee is never going to be in with a shout when Kane and Taylor are around.