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The best at their best

bagapath

International Captain
And it isn't as simple as Lara could finish the job - because, purely and simply, he could not. He needed help from Healy to get over the line. Are you saying that if West Indies had been bowled-out 7 short of their target, as they would if Healy had taken that catch, that Lara would still have finished the job?
Obviously, not. But that is the beauty of sport. There is no place for "ifs" and "buts". Two very similar knocks in quality - sachin's and lara's - one guy led the team to victory and his would always be called the better knock. the dropped catch is not even worthy of a footnote.

BTW I hope you're not suggesting Pakistan's Test attack has been better than England's at every point since 1981/82?
against india, yes.
 

Slifer

International Captain
So many Lara knocks to choose from for the sake of this Richard character:

277, 375, 153*, 213, 400*, 196, 176, 221 & 130, 226, 132,

My best Lara knock was a 112 he scored vs England in 2000 that was completely faultless until he was run out. Until then i was sure he was well on his way to a double. Another over looked knock was his 72 he scored vs RSA in 2003 with a certain Ntini with his tail up on a bouncy Durban wicket. It took an absolute ripper from Ntini to get Lara out. (South Africa score 600+ in the match but that has as much to to with the ineptitude of the Windies bowler more than the wicket ie it wasnt flat at all).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
In terms purely of Lara I'd probably suggest:
277
153*
375
400*

BTW I remember that 112 at Old Trafford in 2000 well, and it was indeed a superb knock, and he was very unfortunate that it was ended by a run-out. But I'd still place it a fair way below the 277 at the SCG.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Obviously, not. But that is the beauty of sport. There is no place for "ifs" and "buts". Two very similar knocks in quality - sachin's and lara's - one guy led the team to victory and his would always be called the better knock. the dropped catch is not even worthy of a footnote.
Of course it is. The dropped catch decided the match, and the series. Healy takes that catch, Australia win 3-1. As it was, the series was a 2-2 draw. Same thing was true of that Browne drop off Stephen Waugh in 1995 - Australia ended-up with a massive victory; if Murray had been well, had played and had (in all probability) taken that catch, the game would've been in the balance and either side could've won.

One single dropped catch can potentially make a massive, massive impact on a cricket match, series, even career. I always think people are foolish to deny this.
against india, yes.
Well, if you were merely meaning in the closest together series then you could make some amount of case for that, but personally I'd say India were challenged more by the England attacks of 2005/06 and 2007 than any Pakistan attack from 2003/04, 2004/05, 2005/06 or 2007/08.
 

bagapath

International Captain
One single dropped catch can potentially make a massive, massive impact on a cricket match, series, even career. I always think people are foolish to deny this.
missed chances are part of any game. cant be bothered about these ifs and buts when judging the sport. even bradman, in one of the early matches after ww2, was not given out on 10 as the umpire thought it was a bump ball. he went on to make 187 and his post war career flourished. he would have retired from the game immediately otherwise. who gives a damn? all we remember is that he continued to pile on centuries, plundered runs off every team that came his way and led the invincibles in one of the greatest tours of all time. no one is saying "he was helped by the umpire". that is how it should be. I always think people are foolish to miss the big picture.

Well, if you were merely meaning in the closest together series then you could make some amount of case for that, but personally I'd say India were challenged more by the England attacks of 2005/06 and 2007 than any Pakistan attack from 2003/04, 2004/05, 2005/06 or 2007/08.
in the years you have mentioned, how many series did pakistan win against india? and how many did england win?
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
missed chances are part of any game. cant be bothered about these ifs and buts when judging the sport. even bradman, in one of the early matches after ww2, was not given out on 10 as the umpire thought it was a bump ball. he went on to make 187 and his post war career flourished. he would have retired from the game immediately otherwise. who gives a damn? all we remember is that he continued to pile on centuries, plundered runs off every team that came his way and led the invincibles in one of the greatest tours of all time. no one is saying "he was helped by the umpire". that is how it should be. I always think people are foolish to miss the big picture.
I always think people are foolish to miss the pieces of the picture. Missed chances are indeed part of the game - and that's exactly the point I'm making. Some people think the impact is minimal; the precise point I'm making is that they can be huge. Your above example backs that up completely. That one Umpiring mistake, had it been made correctly, would have completely changed cricket history, because without it the Invincibles tour would have been totally different.

If you seriously can't be bothered assessing the impact of dropped catches then TBH one questions why anyone bothers following cricket. The impact of a dropped catch can be absolutely massive. Assessing just how big the impact of a dropped catch was is sometimes one of the biggest things in assessing cricket.
in the years you have mentioned, how many series did pakistan win against india? and how many did england win?
Bowlers cause results; batsmen decide whether the results are good or bad. And what's more, the relative strength of the Indian team also impacts, not just the opposition.

I'm seriously struggling with the notion that every single Pakistan attack that played a series against India was better than every single England one. It's, frankly, silly.
 

MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
Laras best innings: 153*
Laras most chanceless innings: 375
Laras most chanceless innings vs a decent attack: 277

Happy now Richard??
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
BTW the fact that a bowler never deserves any credit for a hit-wicket is one reason why it'd be preferable in my mind for a hit-wicket dismissal not to be credited to the bowler.
Even if he's worked the batsman over so he's on the back foot which then causes him to tread on his stumps?
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I find it strange that will all these mentions of Lara's greatness few have mentioned the 213 against Australia the match before Barbados in 1999, an innings I have heard Lara rate as his best. He came in at 34-4 after having been smashed in the previous test and struggling for form. In terms of pure shot selection, this was better than his 153* IMO. And from what I know, Richard, it was chanceless.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Those who seek to look at "half-chances" etc. are those doing the over-complicating. It's pretty straightforward to say what should be taken and what has no realistic chance of being. There will be a minute number of grey areas but plenty of people have over-ambitious expectations of fielders, calling anything that touches the fingertips a chance.
Does the same go for missed run outs?
 

bagapath

International Captain
If you seriously can't be bothered assessing the impact of dropped catches then TBH one questions why anyone bothers following cricket. The impact of a dropped catch can be absolutely massive. Assessing just how big the impact of a dropped catch was is sometimes one of the biggest things in assessing cricket.
Says who, Richard? It is less than a footnote. Ifs and buts are absolutely useless to me.

Bowlers cause results;
Right. And Pak won a series against India in the years you have mentioned. England did not. Proves my point.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
You can't possibly assess the impact of a dropped chance. If it's taken everything that happens after it happens differently. All you can do is wildly speculate unless it would have been the final wicket of the match.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Laras best innings: 153*
Laras most chanceless innings: 375
Laras most chanceless innings vs a decent attack: 277

Happy now Richard??
Lara's most runs made in a chanceless knock was 400* (he did smack one back at Gareth Batty that went through his fingeres almost before he had the chance to move his hands). Nonetheless, the 375 >> the 400* for mine.

As I say, I'd consider Lara's best knock to be his 277. For someone to consider the 153* or even the 375 the best is fair enough, but I will not waver from my belief that the best was the 277.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Says who, Richard? It is less than a footnote. Ifs and buts are absolutely useless to me.
A dropped catch is no if nor but - it's unequivocal, obvious and you can put an exact value on the impact.
Right. And Pak won a series against India in the years you have mentioned. England did not. Proves my point.
How many Tests were drawn between both India-England and India-Pakistan?

Lots and lots.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Does the same go for missed run outs?
Yup, pretty much - if a fielder has ages to take the ball when whip the bails off but fumbles and the batsman escapes, that's an obvious let-off. If something requires a direct-hit with no-one at the stumps, that's not really a let-off, because a direct-hit is always a bonus.

Same thing true of lbws - if batsmen are given n\o to one that might've been clipping leg, that's hardly a let-off. When he's given n\o to one that was patently knocking middle over 2\3 of the way up, that's an obvious let-off.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
As I say, I'd consider Lara's best knock to be his 277. For someone to consider the 153* or even the 375 the best is fair enough, but I will not waver from my belief that the best was the 277.
What about his 213 against Australia in 1999?
 

bagapath

International Captain
How many Tests were drawn between both India-England and India-Pakistan?

Lots and lots.
How does that make an English attack superior to Pakistan's? My point is simple. Pakistan managed to beat India in a series. England did not.
 

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