The Australian top order doom and gloom thread

[Burgey]

Yeah, with Ponting's retirement, I would like to see the panel start with a clean sheet, and have a look at our best batting order going forward. Everything should be open to debate. Is Cowan a banker? Should Warner be down the order? Is Usman suited to opening? Should Clarke move up? Shoud new guys get groomed at six or first drop (as is currently the case)?

Cowan is pretty limited, no doubt. Early on last night he was falling over and looked all set to go lbw. Dunno if it was nerves or what as it isn't something i'd noticed a lot in his game previousyl. But he's pretty gutsy and he plays the ball late. I can see why they might want to persist with him in England. Not because he's ever going to devastate a line up, but because I think they see him as a bloke who can bat time, and his style lends itself to batting decently against the swinging ball. Certainly if a younger bloke with a tight technique came along then I'd consider punting him, but I don't know that there's a lot of options.

Besides, I'm a life member of the Dour Left Handed Openers' Club.

 

[TumTum]

Cowan and Warner will stay.

3. Watson*
4. Someone*
5. Clarke*
6. Hussey
7. Hopefully new keeper

*order can be rearranged

I see both Khawaja and Hughes have good success against SL, as it's middle order I guess Khawaja will be selected, but I want to see Hughes because he'll have a bigger impact and he's my fav.

 

[tooextracool]

I'm not entirely sure I understood the reasoning behind Watson moving down the order but IMO Australia would extract the greatest benefit out of him at the top. Its the only position he's ever been remotely successful at, and I'd take a 50 from him at the top when the ball is hard and new over a 50 from him at 3 or 4 when players are expected to cash in.

I certainly hope that the likes of Clarke and Hussey bat a position higher, it seems pointless for them to be coming in constantly with 3 or 4 down for almost nothing. Warner at 6 maybe an interesting experiment.

As far as Hughes is concerned, I am actually a bit surprised that he is yet to play ODIs. It seems logical for him to be ingratiated into the setup by acclimatizing to international cricket in a less demanding format.

 

[Justo]

I'd go with Hughes. He's currently the leading shield and ODD run scorer. Has a previous record to support his current form and has actually redeveloped his game from when he was last dropped. He's also probably the best batsmen we have against spin not in the side which will be useful against Sri Lanka and India.

I don't see why you'd drop Cowan all of a sudden. He's just made his first test century against the best bowling attack going around at a time when the rest of the top order had failed. While I feel he's a limited batsmen he's earnt at least the Sri Lankan series and given his performances on the last A tour could be very useful in England.

TBH I can only see our batting improving with Ponting retiring. If you take away the recent Indian series he's barely averaged 20 for the last few years. So anyone is going to be an improvement at 4. Everyone also likes to complain about Watson but he's still achieving more than Marsh and Quiney who barely made double figures when at 3(excluding Marsh against Sri Lanka of course).

 

[howardj]

Cowan is pretty limited, no doubt. Early on last night he was falling over and looked all set to go lbw. Dunno if it was nerves or what as it isn't something i'd noticed a lot in his game previousyl. But he's pretty gutsy and he plays the ball late. I can see why they might want to persist with him in England. Not because he's ever going to devastate a line up, but because I think they see him as a bloke who can bat time, and his style lends itself to batting decently against the swinging ball. Certainly if a younger bloke with a tight technique came along then I'd consider punting him, but I don't know that there's a lot of options.

Besides, I'm a life member of the Dour Left Handed Openers' Club.

Yeah, I am happy to take Cowan if he either gives me just 40 consistently or bats for two hours consistently - am happy with either consistently. It's just that Warner will always be boom or bust, so we really need his partner to be consistent. I don't have Hayden or Langer aspirations for Warner's partner. He can give me two hours or 40, and he has a job. To date, half of Ed's innings have been less than 25. Everybody says how well Cowan and Warner complement each other - I disagree in the sense that both are boom or bust. And, if there is one position where you can't afford that it's from both your openers.

 

[Johnners]

Who will take Punter's spot?

yeah maxwell probably remains a smokie.

I like how they say that over the last few seasons Doolan has been accumulating runs under the radar...I assume by radar they mean "an average of 35"? Granted he has done well so far this season.

Hughes to open, Ed & Watto to move down a spot each, or Usman to 3, Watto @ 4 for the question at hand though imo.

 

[Prince EWS]

Cowan is of no real value to the side unless he opens IMO.

 

[benchmark00]

Yeah like I've said in the past I'd really like to see Watson at 4. If the top order do their job it'll allow him to come in and bully the attack like he likes to and it gives him a good break between innings to rest up after bowling.

I really like D00lan, and it wouldn't be the worst thing to see him thrown in there. Worst case scenario is that he doesn't do well and he goes back to Shield cricket and knows what to work on. They'll go with Usman though.

 

[SeamUp]

There is a player in South Africa called Stiaan Van Zyl who reminds me of Usman Khawaja. They are a treat to watch when they get going with their stroke play but I feel they don't relieve pressure off themselves by manipulating singles inbetween the good stroke play and boundaries. Their hands are always going hard at the ball. Obviously they both could move their feet more as well but some of the best batsman haven't needed to put their feet right to the pitch of the ball.

But am I right with Usman ? Thats my impression of him when I've seen him.

Has he worked on this part of his game ?

 

[Johnners]

Cowan is of no real value to the side unless he opens IMO.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't see him being dropped just yet, and he's the one most likely to drop down the order if they decided to give Hughes another crack. (That and I like Cowan, want to see him do well, no matter if it doesn't altogether suit the team )

I'd say whoever scores the most runs out of Khawaja & Doolan in the Chairmans XI match will get the nod @ 3 though, with Watto down to 4.

 

[Prince EWS]

I'm going to stick this post about Khawaja and Hughes in here because this is where it probably belonged in the first place:

Yep, he [Khawaja] is a complicated case. He was very unlucky to be dropped in Sri Lanka - he had the spot for his first extended run in Tests, but Ponting got injured so Marsh came in, and of course Marsh made a ton to hold his place for a while after that while Khawaja was left out. He came back in against South Africa but he was only there as an injury replacement for Marsh, and this is where he actually looked his best. Against New Zealand he looked horrible though and he was scapegoated a bit for the drawn series, dropped for the series against India (where he probably would've actually scored runs tbf).

All in all he was pretty unlucky throughout all that and I think the selectors would even admit that, but he's not been at all unlucky since. He averaged under 20 in the Shield for the rest of the season after being dropped and didn't cross 50 once, then had a fairly meagre stint with Derbyshire averaging 40 odd with one hundred in Division 2, and when Quiney was named as Watson's replacement he'd only passed 50 twice during the summer without converting on either occasion. He's picked up a MOTM award and scored a ton since which are good signs, but the way he handled being dropped he had no right coming back into the side, no matter how unlucky he was initially.

I think the selectors and most of the fans are thinking that the top three in Tests long term will be Warner-Hughes-Khawaja, but they all definitely have some work to do on their techniques before it becomes a reality, particularly the latter two. Hughes's problems have been well publicised but I actually think he has a better technique than Khawaja as it stands despite obviously being less orthodox and less aesthetically pleasing. The real downer for Khawaja is just how easy it is to bowl to a plan to him; if you pitch it up outside off you'll not only get him fishing in defence but completely tie him down as well. This is in contrast to Hughes who has a great strength right next to his weakness, so if you try to get him caught slip and you don't execute quite right he will murder you square on the off side; you actually have to tuck him up to tie him down which is unlikely to get him out. Being able to punish the bowlers when they err in their typical plans is what effective batting is all about, and Hughes does that so much better than Khawaja at the moment, who at Test level just isn't really going to get waist high balls on his body to pull away all that often.

I'm not really a big fan of Doolan but it wouldn't be a disgrace if he was selected at this point. I'd rather take a punt on Joe Burns personally.

 

[Flem274*]

Are there seriously no 28-30 year olds with modest but decent FC records around? Surely there's got to be someone with an average of 38-42 or similar.

 

[benchmark00]

I'm going to stick this post about Khawaja and Hughes in here because this is where it probably belonged in the first place:



I'm not really a big fan of Doolan but it wouldn't be a disgrace if he was selected at this point. I'd rather take a punt on Joe Burns personally.

Cliffs?

 

[benchmark00]

Are there seriously no 28-30 year olds with modest but decent FC records around? Surely there's got to be someone with an average of 38-42 or similar.

Bob Quiney.

 

[Flem274*]

Bob Quiney.

Point taken.

 

[benchmark00]

There is a player in South Africa called Stiaan Van Zyl who reminds me of Usman Khawaja. They are a treat to watch when they get going with their stroke play but I feel they don't relieve pressure off themselves by manipulating singles inbetween the good stroke play and boundaries. Their hands are always going hard at the ball. Obviously they both could move their feet more as well but some of the best batsman haven't needed to put their feet right to the pitch of the ball.

But am I right with Usman ? Thats my impression of him when I've seen him.

Has he worked on this part of his game ?

You're probably pretty spot on there.

Usman looked pretty dour when playing test cricket because he got bogged down and couldn't rotate the strike when bad balls weren't coming. In Shield cricket he can get away with waiting on the loose one, can't do it so much in test cricket.

 

[Johnners]

Really though, in our hearts, we all know the answer lies in this chap

C Ferg, WAG.

 

[Prince EWS]

Are there seriously no 28-30 year olds with modest but decent FC records around? Surely there's got to be someone with an average of 38-42 or similar.

Here's the list of Australian players aged 28-32 with First Class averages of 38 or more:

Michael Clarke
Shane Watson
Mark Cosgrove
Ed Cowan
Ben Rohrer
Cameron White
George Bailey

I don't think I've forgotten anyone, but I may have.

 

[Flem274*]

Here's the list of Australian players aged 28-32 with First Class averages of 38 or more:

Michael Clarke
Shane Watson
Mark Cosgrove
Ed Cowan
Ben Rohrer
Cameron White
George Bailey

I don't think I've forgotten anyone, but I may have.

wtf happened? Looks like an entire generation got skipped for no glaring reason.

 

[Johnners]

Hughes, how many more tests do we give him? Even if he plays the SL tests, is he likely to succeed in India? Maybe he deserves a chance, I wouldnt back quiney or doolan to succeed in India. No matter how England goes in India you just know India turn it on when Australia tours, been a LONG time since we won a test there. I am worried, a lot. 2013 could be a disaster, our bowling attack is questionable, we have nine away tests.

Wait, when are we going to India? I thought that was in 2014