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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Pre '52

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Grace
Hammond
Headley
Miller
Ames
Lindwall
O'Reilly
Barnes

From '52

Richards
Gavaskar
Richards
Tendulkar
Smith
Sobers
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

Lara and Headley can be easy inclusions. Hadlee the better bowler and batmans over Wasim, and Lara just as good, but some LH variety in the top 5.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Imran provides Great reverse swing and a don't rate him as a bowler much behind that group. His batting being @37 is definitely a factor as well. Hadlee and Maco at 8 and 9 are more than perfectly fine, but don't think extra batting hurts really

If it's going to cause you to drop who you believe to be the 2nd best bowler ever?

Anyways, I'll drop it as you've earned grace for

Hmmmmm..... I would go:

Pre 1952:

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman*
Grace
Hammond
Miller
Ames+
Rhodes
Lindwall
O'Reilly
Barnes

Subs:

Sutcliffe
Trumper
Headley
Nourse
Ranji
Faulkner
Oldfield+
Larwood
Bedser
Grimmett
Spofforth



Post 52:

Gavaskar
Barry
Viv
Tendulkar
Smith
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Imran*
Hadlee
Marshall
Murali

Subs:

Boycott
Greenidge
Kallis
Lara
Pollock
Border
Sangakkara+
Akram
Warne
Steyn
McGrath

Well done.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
The ATG average XI, based on numbers laid out in this post

I’ll be trying to choose the longest tenured players who remain reasonably close to those averages, to make this average team more easily visualizable.

Joe Burns
Sadiq Mohammad
Larry Gomes
Ashwell Prince
Ajinkya Rahane*
John Reid
Ridley Jacobs+
Brett Lee
Tim Southee
Taijul Islam
Matthew Hoggard
 

Thala_0710

State Captain
The ATG average XI, based on numbers laid out in this post

I’ll be trying to choose the longest tenured players who remain reasonably close to those averages, to make this average team more easily visualizable.

Joe Burns
Sadiq Mohammad
Larry Gomes
Ashwell Prince
Ajinkya Rahane*
John Reid
Ridley Jacobs+
Brett Lee
Tim Southee
Taijul Islam
Matthew Hoggard
That bowling definitely seems above average to me
 

Thala_0710

State Captain
Average pace bowler averages mid 30’s. Average spin bowler averages mid 31’s.
Surely Brett Lee and Hoggard are above average though? Mohammad Siraj might me a better pick for an average pacer in the same average range. All bowlers with an equal average are not really the same. These are probably the best Pacers ever to average above 30.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Surely Brett Lee and Hoggard are above average though? Mohammad Siraj might me a better pick for an average pacer in the same average range. All bowlers with an equal average are not really the same. These are probably the best Pacers ever to average above 30.
Well as I linked in the other post, I had to also take into account the player’s batting average to place them at 8/9/10/11 in regards to tail strength. Siraj’s batting disqualifies him.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Think Southee is still career wise better than them 2
Well yes, so I’m meaning that his career stats undersell him which makes him “less” average.

Of course everyone keep in mind this is a purely statistical excercise, as it is based on average numbers over 105 years of test cricket. Its not going to take into account differences in eras throughout this, and relative strengths of those players in those eras.

Its not meant to be definitive in any way, just a very basic statistical take on the “average” team. Which gets brought up a lot lately.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Warning, this is going to be a few rambling posts here so either a) settle in, or b) avoid like the plague.

I have recently regained access to some of my old cricket books which had been in storage on the other side of the world for quite some time. One of those was a book I’ve referenced here many times, The Top 100 & The 1st XI by Philip Derriman, a 1988 tome which profiles (in his view) the 100 greatest Australian cricketers – in alphabetical, not ranked order – and then attempts to statistically choose an all time Australian XI based on relative performance, i.e. by how far players exceeded their peers (the methodology is explained in the book).

I’ve posted the selected XI here before I think, though I’ll post again now for reference. The qualification was that the player must have scored at least 1,000 Test runs or taken at least 75 Test wickets. The team selected was:

Bob Simpson
Sid Barnes
Don Bradman*
Neil Harvey
Greg Chappell
Alan Davidson
Don Tallon
Dennis Lillee
Clarrie Grimmett
Fred Spofforth
Bill O’Reilly
Keith Miller (12th Man)

Derriman notes that this selection was based on the old theory that an ideal XI should consist of five bowlers, five batsmen and a wicketkeeper. He acknowledges the long tail and says that he strongly considered bringing Miller into the side, but said that if that happened then he had to drop Lillee (as both Davo and Spofforth ranked higher on the statistical analysis for bowlers), which he didn’t want to do. Dropping a spinner (it would have been Grimmett who went) was apparently never even a consideration.

I am in agreement that the tail is too long for a team like this, but I thought it really interesting as an example of how team selection has evolved over recent decades. The book in question, in addition to selecting the above team, also asked seven other eminent cricketers, writers and followers of the game to select their own all time Australian XIs, which I will post subsequently below.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
The other teams, as promised.

Bill O’Reilly (who was asked to select himself and ten others) chose:
Bill Ponsford
Victor Trumper
Charlie Macartney
Don Bradman
Stan McCabe
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon
Clarrie Grimmett*
Bill O’Reilly
(Arthur Morris, 12th Man)

Jack Fingleton (who named his team in his autobiography):
Bill Ponsford
Victor Trumper
Don Bradman*
Stan McCabe
Greg Chappell
Hugh Trumble
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon
Clarrie Grimmett
Dennis Lillee
Bill O’Reilly
(Keith Miller, 12th Man)

Alan McGilvray (legendary Australian radio commentator):
Arthur Morris
Victor Trumper
Don Bradman
Clem Hill
Greg Chappell
Monty Noble*
Keith Miller
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon
Clarrie Grimmett
Bill O’Reilly
(Neil Harvey, 12th Man)

Hunter Hendry (who was at the time Australia’s oldest living Test cricketer):
Arthur Morris
Victor Trumper
Charlie Macartney
Don Bradman
Monty Noble*
Keith Miller
Alan Davidson
Don Tallon
Ray Lindwall
Bill O’Reilly
Arthur Mailey
(Charlie “Nip” Pellew, 12th Man)

Jack Pollard (noted Australian cricket writer and publisher):
Sid Barnes
Victor Trumper
Don Bradman
Charlie Macartney
Keith Miller
Monty Noble*
Don Tallon
Hugh Trumble
Jack Ferris
Dennis Lillee
Bill O’Reilly
(Bill Ponsford, 12th Man)

Phil Ridings (a former Australian selector):
Bob Simpson
Arthur Morris
Don Bradman*
Sid Barnes
Ian Chappell
Keith Miller
Alan Davidson
Don Tallon
Ray Lindwall
Dennis Lillee/Bill Johnston
Bill O’Reilly
(Lillee or Johnston, 12th Man)

Cliff Winning (cricket historian and former NSW Cricket Association archivist):
Arthur Morris
Victor Trumper
Don Bradman*
Neil Harvey
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Don Tallon
Clarrie Grimmett
Fred Spofforth
Dennis Lillee
Bill O’Reilly
(Ian Chappell, 12th Man)

Some comments on these teams to follow.
 

bagapath

International Captain
thanks for the post

It is a fabulous team. definitely long in the tail; but with Bradman at 3 it is possible to go with five batsmen/ five bowlers and one great wk who can't bat, I guess.
just because the combined batting talents of 6 and 7 (the batting skills of nos 8 to 11 kind of mean the same in any combo) is about 20 runs short won't affect this team much I think.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Firstly, the trends. Only three players appear in every selection – Don Bradman, Bill O’Reilly and Don Tallon. Victor Trumper is picked in six teams. Keith Miller makes five (plus a sixth as 12th Man), as does his great mate and fast bowling partner Ray Lindwall.

Morris beats Ponsford to be next in line at the top of the order after Trumper. Simpson makes just one team, and Lawry is ignored completely. The top three middle-order bats after Bradman are Chappell, Macartney and McCabe. Interestingly, several choose Macartney at 3 and Bradman at 4, despite 4 being statistically Bradman's worst position.

The great left-handers are surprisingly overlooked – there is just a single vote for each of Hill, Harvey and Border. Given the affection with which Harvey was held at the time, and the clear fondness for players of the Bradman era, his lack of votes is particularly surprising.

The fast bowling votes are spread out behind Lindwall. Lillee is next but picked in only half the teams (3.5, in fact!), with Spofforth, Turner, Ferris, Johnston and Davo all getting a mention.

Monty Noble was picked in three teams – each alongside Miller in an all-rounder double pivot – but significantly all three men who chose Noble made him their captain.

And for those asking about Hendry’s selection – Charlie Pellew played 10 Tests for Australia in the early 1920s and was renowned as a superb fieldsman. That is likely why Hendry selected him as 12th Man, and also I daresay probably because they were good mates!
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
On a broader point (see, I got to it eventually), I find it fascinating going over these old teams – and remember, they were all selected in the 1980s so aren’t that old – and seeing how the composition and balance of such teams has evolved even in my lifetime. You can see from the above that it was almost a matter of course that you picked five bowlers, and at least two of those bowlers were spinners. The two above – O’Reilly and Winning – who bucked that trend and stacked the batting to have only four bowlers, still had two spinners!

It is probably all these old books, and the penchant for beloved old cricketers I grew up idolising to choose teams with five bowling options, that influences to this day how I pick my teams. I absolutely don’t go in for choosing five specialist bowlers and the best specialist gloveman regardless of his batting, and subsequently leave myself with a tail starting at 6 or 7. But at the same time, I’ve never quite fully embraced the idea of six batsmen and four bowlers – I always like to have a fifth option.

That fifth option can take many forms – for example, I invariably pick Mushtaq Mohammad in my Pakistan ATXI because I love the balance and depth he brings to the attack while still being a good enough batsman to play in the top 6, albeit not as good as a pure specialist bat. My All Time Australian 2nd XI, on the other hand has both Bob Simpson and Steve Waugh. They took 163 Test wickets between them, so I am prepared to stack the batting in that team and jointly consider them my “fifth bowler”.

Where I diverge from a lot of people I think is when I have a genuine world class bowling all-rounder available for selection. It came up in discussion recently when talking about Ian Botham in an all time England XI, with some people saying he’d have to bat at 8 and be one of the four main bowlers, because if you picked him at six he wouldn’t make enough runs and wouldn’t bowl enough. This is where I fundamentally disagree, because at that point and if I have a player like Botham (or Keith Miller in the Australian XI equivalent) then he’s not a “fifth bowler”, he is one of my “five bowlers”. This is for me a really important distinction.

To me – and I realise that others think differently when developing the composition of their teams – I’m not picking a player like Ian Botham to bowl a handful of overs as a glorified part-timer to give my other four a rest. If I have a bowling all-rounder of that class then I know I am giving up some runs in the middle order specifically because I now have five world class bowlers instead of four, and I will rotate and utilise them accordingly to improve my chances of taking 20 wickets.

Maybe he is the fifth best of the five bowlers, but there’s a big difference between being the fifth best in a balanced attack of five world class bowlers and being the bits-and-pieces bowler who gives the four champions a rest. Colin Croft was the fourth best quick in the WI team he shared with Holding, Roberts and Garner but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t one of the quartet and a critical part of the full time attack. My philosophy is the same, but with five rather than four when you have the bowlers and the team balance to do so.

I know a lot of people think that if four gun bowlers can’t get your 20 wickets then a fifth won’t make a difference, and if that’s your thinking then fair enough – that certainly seems to be the prevailing thought these days. Suffice it to say, I don’t necessarily agree.

Anyway, that was a lot of words to say I have recently re-read an old book.
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Surprised everyone took Tallon and not a single vote for either of Oldfield or Blackham
Agreed, and the selectors even included several blokes who actually played with Oldfield.

In his profile of Tallon in the book itself, Derriman writes:

"I have spoken to many old cricketers who have seen every Australian wicketkeeper from Bert Oldfield to Tim Zoehrer, and not one of them has had any hesitation in placing Don Tallon above the rest."
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Very interesting stuff. It also begs the question of course - is the current way of thinking about team construction - generally 5 batsmen, an allrounder, a keeper, 3 pacers and a spinner - better or worse? Of course we’ll never know, but interesting to muse upon.

Was shocked to see Ferris in one of the sides, despite his record you don’t really ever see him mentioned alongside early Australian bowlers like Spofforth, Turner and Trumble.

Was shocked to see a Chappell vote.

Unfortunately, all these blokes bar Pollard (who died in 2002) had died before Gilchrist debuted. (unsure about Winning, cannot find any info on him at all) Would be interesting to see what they thought of him.
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Other than here, O’Reilly doesn’t really get appreciated for as good as he was. When these debates of greatest bowler of all time comes up both Barnes and O’Reilly deserve a mention everytime. Those two were pretty convincingly the greatest bowler ever for decades and decades.
 

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