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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
The fact that Ranji (according to his profile, because we have never seen him play) developed the backwards defence, from that alone I will maintain that he was still very much of the infancy of a developing sport and he nor Grace nor Barnes (who no one can swear they knew what he bowled far less) can really qualify to be rated among the more modern greats.

So yes, we can agree to disagree.
John Carpenter was a backfoot player though..... But yeah, the sport has changed and on teleporting Don all of sudden to modern day you really can't expect him to score with the same ferocity. I go by, a really Great player would had adapted in any era and use that logic while making my teams. So yeah, we can disagree on here.
 

kyear2

International Coach
John Carpenter was a backfoot player though..... But yeah, the sport has changed and on teleporting Don all of sudden to modern day you really can't expect him to score with the same ferocity. I go by, a really Great player would had adapted in any era and use that logic while making my teams. So yeah, we can disagree on here.
Don Bradman isn't averaging 100 batting in the 80's or 90's, but that's another argument for another day.

Yes it has changed, but I can see Sobers playing today, and yes Bradman, Hutton and Hammond as well (though would be targeted by the short stuff), I can't say the same for guys who finished paying in 1902.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Don Bradman isn't averaging 100 batting in the 80's or 90's, but that's another argument for another day.

Yes it has changed, but I can see Sobers playing today, and yes Bradman, Hutton and Hammond as well (though would be targeted by the short stuff), I can't say the same for guys who finished paying in 1902.
I can see them playing but not sure how good they would be in the present day being teleported. The sport has changed significantly from the 80s, let alone the 30s.
 

CricketFan90s

State Vice-Captain
Australia Ashes XI (1946-2024) (Players younger than Don Bradman)
1) Justin Langer - 1658 - 50.24
2) Bob Simpson - 1405 - 50.17
3) Ricky Ponting - 2476 - 44.21
4) Steven Smith - 3417 - 56.01
5) Steve Waugh - 3200 - 58.18
6) Allan Border* - 3548 - 56.31
7) Adam Gilchrist+ - 1083 - 45.12
8) Shane Warne - 946 - 22.00 and 195 Wickets - 23.25
9) Ray Lindwall - 795 - 22.08 and 114 Wickets - 22.44
9) Dennis Lillee - 469 - 18.03 and 167 Wickets - 21.00
11) Glenn McGrath - 105 - 6.17 and 157 Wickets - 20.92

This Team was Selected Based on their Performance Against England. Can this Team Defeat England XI ?

England Ashes XI (1946-2024) (Players younger than Don Bradman)

1) Len Hutton* - 2428 - 56.46
2) John Edrich - 2644 - 48.96
3) Ken Barrington - 2111 - 63.96
4) David Gower - 3269 - 44.78
5) Kevin Pietersen - 2158 - 44.95
6) Ian Botham - 1673 - 29.35 and 148 Wickets - 27.65
7) Alan Knott+ - 1682 - 32.98
8) Andrew Flintoff - 906 - 33.55 and 50 Wickets - 33.20
9) Jim Laker - 277 - 14.57 and 79 Wickets - 18.27
10) Fred Trueman - 338 - 12.07 and 79 Wickets - 25.30
11) Bob Willis - 383 - 10.35 and 128 Wickets - 26.14

This Team was Selected Based on their Performance Against Australia. Can this Team Defeat Australia XI ?
 

peterhrt

U19 Vice-Captain
tbf to him, its not like he was underperforming relative to his contemporaries - vs Aus/SA/Windies at home in matches he played in:

Barrington 51 innings 1880 @ 40.00 1 ton 13 fifties
Dexter 36 innings 1313 @ 36.47 2 tons 7 fifties
Cowdrey 36 innings 1275 @ 38.63 3 tons 6 fifties
The comparison with Cowdrey and Dexter is relevant. Removing the distinction between amateur and professional in 1962 now seems to have been long overdue. That's not how everyone saw it then. To some it was another drastic measure fitting the widely held view that the days of cricket as a spectator sport were numbered.

In 1963 the first one-day competition was launched. An experimental match was also held at Lord's that year reverting to the pre-1935 lbw law and adding a fourth stump. The front foot no-ball rule was introduced to stop “drag” combining with the thorny problem of throwing.
MCC were so worried about the 1966 football World Cup emptying grounds that they invited West Indies back after three years rather than the scheduled six, introducing split incoming tours to accommodate them. Barrington's 137 in seven and a quarter hours against New Zealand the year before couldn't have come at a worse time. Keith Miller said it had taken cricket back to the Dark Ages.

Cowdrey and Dexter had been amateurs with private incomes. They looked the part on and off the field, making batting seem easy against even the most hostile bowling. Barrington, a professional, relied on the game for his livelihood. He didn't possess anything like the same confidence and constantly worried about being dropped.

Cowdrey wasn't bothered about making big scores. More often than not he would get out soon after reaching a hundred. Barrington never gave it away and sometimes actually slowed down when well set, to the frustration of those watching. Comparisons with Boycott were misleading. The Yorkshireman was not a natural strokeplayer and had to work hard on his game. According to Dexter, Barrington had all the shots but chose not to play them.

Overall Barrington did not score much slower in Test cricket than Cowdrey or Dexter, or May, who were all pretty negative captains, contributing to drawn matches and the mentality Barrington was criticised for. But they never gave the perception of occupying the crease for the sake of it, which Barrington sometimes did. Chairman of selectors Doug Insole told Barrington to his face that his batting was selfish. He would never have dared say the same to the ex-amateurs, but in any case it probably wouldn't have been true.

Had he been paid better, Barrington might well have batted more positively and been rated higher. But he probably wouldn't have scored as many runs.
 

peterhrt

U19 Vice-Captain
The fact that Ranji (according to his profile, because we have never seen him play) developed the backwards defence, from that alone I will maintain that he was still very much of the infancy of a developing sport and he nor Grace nor Barnes (who no one can swear they knew what he bowled far less) can really qualify to be rated among the more modern greats.
There is footage of Grace, Ranji and Barnes.
 

peterhrt

U19 Vice-Captain
There is footage of Barnes?? I am sure I read that was lost in time!?? Can you tell me where I can find it??
It was in a VHS Benson & Hedges Golden Greats compilation of bowlers about forty years ago. The footage was of Barnes as quite an old man, delivering a few balls for the camera.
 

Coronis

International Coach
The comparison with Cowdrey and Dexter is relevant. Removing the distinction between amateur and professional in 1962 now seems to have been long overdue. That's not how everyone saw it then. To some it was another drastic measure fitting the widely held view that the days of cricket as a spectator sport were numbered.

In 1963 the first one-day competition was launched. An experimental match was also held at Lord's that year reverting to the pre-1935 lbw law and adding a fourth stump. The front foot no-ball rule was introduced to stop “drag” combining with the thorny problem of throwing.
MCC were so worried about the 1966 football World Cup emptying grounds that they invited West Indies back after three years rather than the scheduled six, introducing split incoming tours to accommodate them. Barrington's 137 in seven and a quarter hours against New Zealand the year before couldn't have come at a worse time. Keith Miller said it had taken cricket back to the Dark Ages.

Cowdrey and Dexter had been amateurs with private incomes. They looked the part on and off the field, making batting seem easy against even the most hostile bowling. Barrington, a professional, relied on the game for his livelihood. He didn't possess anything like the same confidence and constantly worried about being dropped.

Cowdrey wasn't bothered about making big scores. More often than not he would get out soon after reaching a hundred. Barrington never gave it away and sometimes actually slowed down when well set, to the frustration of those watching. Comparisons with Boycott were misleading. The Yorkshireman was not a natural strokeplayer and had to work hard on his game. According to Dexter, Barrington had all the shots but chose not to play them.

Overall Barrington did not score much slower in Test cricket than Cowdrey or Dexter, or May, who were all pretty negative captains, contributing to drawn matches and the mentality Barrington was criticised for. But they never gave the perception of occupying the crease for the sake of it, which Barrington sometimes did. Chairman of selectors Doug Insole told Barrington to his face that his batting was selfish. He would never have dared say the same to the ex-amateurs, but in any case it probably wouldn't have been true.

Had he been paid better, Barrington might well have batted more positively and been rated higher. But he probably wouldn't have scored as many runs.
Yeah I believe I’ve read he was originally quite a dashing strokeplayer. After being picked and dropped in 55 he eschewed that to ensure better output and to prevent him being dropped. iirc in that NZ innings he actually reached his ton with a 6, which was like a big **** you to everyone.
 

CricketFan90s

State Vice-Captain
Australia Ashes XI (1946-2024) (Players younger than Don Bradman)
1) Justin Langer - 1658 - 50.24
2) Bob Simpson - 1405 - 50.17
3) Ricky Ponting - 2476 - 44.21
4) Steven Smith - 3417 - 56.01
5) Steve Waugh - 3200 - 58.18
6) Allan Border* - 3548 - 56.31
7) Adam Gilchrist+ - 1083 - 45.12
8) Shane Warne - 946 - 22.00 and 195 Wickets - 23.25
9) Ray Lindwall - 795 - 22.08 and 114 Wickets - 22.44
9) Dennis Lillee - 469 - 18.03 and 167 Wickets - 21.00
11) Glenn McGrath - 105 - 6.17 and 157 Wickets - 20.92

This Team was Selected Based on their Performance Against England. Can this Team Defeat England XI ?

England Ashes XI (1946-2024) (Players younger than Don Bradman)

1) Len Hutton* - 2428 - 56.46
2) John Edrich - 2644 - 48.96
3) Ken Barrington - 2111 - 63.96
4) David Gower - 3269 - 44.78
5) Kevin Pietersen - 2158 - 44.95
6) Ian Botham - 1673 - 29.35 and 148 Wickets - 27.65
7) Alan Knott+ - 1682 - 32.98
8) Andrew Flintoff - 906 - 33.55 and 50 Wickets - 33.20
9) Jim Laker - 277 - 14.57 and 79 Wickets - 18.27
10) Fred Trueman - 338 - 12.07 and 79 Wickets - 25.30
11) Bob Willis - 383 - 10.35 and 128 Wickets - 26.14

This Team was Selected Based on their Performance Against Australia. Can this Team Defeat Australia XI ?
What is the Strength of this England Team ?
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, a profile written by an acknowledged cricket writer on an established web site is always the worst place to get information.
When it doesn't accord with sources contemporary to the game at the time, it can be concluded it's inaccurate, regardless of who wrote it.
 

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