The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[honestbharani]

I won't type out or copy the entire 100 here (though am happy to take questions) but for those interested, the Top Ten was:

1. Don Bradman
2. WG Grace
3. Jack Hobbs
4. Garry Sobers
5. Brian Lara
6. Ian Botham
7. Viv Richards
8. Len Hutton
9. Shane Warne
10. Wilfred Rhodes

A very batting-heavy list at the top end, especially when considering that the next three at 11-12-13 (Hammond-Gavaskar-Tendulkar) are all batsmen as well.

I've never before seen a list where Sobers is ranked outside the top three, and it is interesting that Rhodes makes the top ten here but none of his great all-round contemporaries - Faulkner, Noble or Woolley - make the top 100 at all.

Lara above Sachin and Jonty in the list. J'approve...........


But seriously, would be curious to see his reasoning. How can you have Marshall that low, lol?

 

[The Sean]

Moving on to the XIs which were also selected as part of the book. Firstly, the TMS 40th Anniversary Dream Team, selected by the TMS team and covering the years 1957-1997:

Sunil Gavaskar
Desmond Haynes
Greg Chappell
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Garry Sobers
Ian Botham
Alan Knott
Richard Hadlee
Dennis Lillee
Shane Warne

Let's start with the planet-sized elephant in that selection room. Desmond Haynes was a superb player, but for the majority of his career he was the second best opening batsman on his own team. To pick him ahead of Greenidge seems almost willfully contrary, let alone also ahead of the likes of Hanif, Simpson, Lawry, Boycott and Gooch.

The rest of the team - while of course being different to the exact one I would have picked - is far less controversial, though I don't know why Chappell rather than Richards was picked at first drop.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

He's obviously a bit of a berk, but at least he rates Botham properly, so seems to be less longevity/peak/decline obsessed than some.

 

[The Sean]

Finally, the five TMS experts at the time - Peter Baxter, Henry Blofeld, Bill Frindall, Jonathan Agnew and Christopher Martin-Jenkins - each selected their All Time World XIs.

Without typing all five teams out (though I may yet do so if the discussion progresses), it's a curiosity that only two men appear in all five teams: Don Bradman and Jack Hobbs.

For those of you asking the obvious question as to who left Sobers out of their side, it was Aggers.

A further curiosity considering that these selections were all made by gents associated with Test Match Special - more of them picked Barry Richards in their all time team than picked Len Hutton.

 

[Teja.]

Moving on to the XIs which were also selected as part of the book. Firstly, the TMS 40th Anniversary Dream Team, selected by the TMS team and covering the years 1957-1997:

Sunil Gavaskar
Desmond Haynes
Greg Chappell
Viv Richards
Graeme Pollock
Garry Sobers
Ian Botham
Alan Knott
Richard Hadlee
Dennis Lillee
Shane Warne

Let's start with the planet-sized elephant in that selection room. Desmond Haynes was a superb player, but for the majority of his career he was the second best opening batsman on his own team. To pick him ahead of Greenidge seems almost willfully contrary, let alone also ahead of the likes of Hanif, Simpson, Lawry, Boycott and Gooch.

The rest of the team - while of course being different to the exact one I would have picked - is far less controversial, though I don't know why Chappell rather than Richards was picked at first drop.

I think there was probably a bias towards Haynes because he was the highest ODI runscorer by a massive margin and had 17 ODI centuries to the 11 that the second best had when he retired in 1994. Even by 1997, the above record was largely the same.

I know that is a test side but there was a tinge of greatness attached even by the mid-90s to him due to being the highest runscorer of all time in ODIs, especially by such a large margin.

This is the list of top ODI runscorers when Haynes retired:

 

[honestbharani]

Finally, the five TMS experts at the time - Peter Baxter, Henry Blofeld, Bill Frindall, Jonathan Agnew and Christopher Martin-Jenkins - each selected their All Time World XIs.

Without typing all five teams out (though I may yet do so if the discussion progresses), it's a curiosity that only two men appear in all five teams: Don Bradman and Jack Hobbs.

For those of you asking the obvious question as to who left Sobers out of their side, it was Aggers.

A further curiosity considering that these selections were all made by gents associated with Test Match Special - more of them picked Barry Richards in their all time team than picked Len Hutton.

@bagapath

 

[Xix2565]

A further curiosity considering that these selections were all made by gents associated with Test Match Special - more of them picked Barry Richards in their all time team than picked Len Hutton.

I'll never understand Barry Richards involved in such conversations. Surely people would like actual playing time to be considered over potential?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ironically, by not playing Barry Richards is probably remembered as a much better cricketer than he would have if he had played a full career

 

[bagapath]

@bagapath

I'll never understand Barry Richards involved in such conversations. Surely people would like actual playing time to be considered over potential?

Ironically, by not playing Barry Richards is probably remembered as a much better cricketer than he would have if he had played a full career

thank you

a list that features Marshall at 75 is a dodgy one, unless it was made in the year 1982 by when he had not yet peaked.

the top 10 looks fine, actually.

 

[sunilz]

How can Tendulkar/Lara/Warne feature in 1982 list ? ?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The list is from 1997 and celebrated 40 years of Test Match Special 1957-1997. TMS wasn’t just limited to Test Cricket though and neither was the list. Hence Barry Richards.

 

[bagapath]

****ers! make a name with "Test Match Special"
And then mix test and first class cricket
**** list, obviously

 

[bagapath]

How can Tendulkar/Lara/Warne feature in 1982 list ? ?

I was trying to say "if" this were made in 1982 Marshall would have made a mark in international cricket by then and broken in to the top 100, but not yet reached the top 20 (where he will end up after 1988 until forever). List made in 1997 should have him 60 places higher.

But that is the beauty of these top 100 conversations. There is no definitive methodology to rank players. Each list is different. And you still learn something every time you see one.

 

[bagapath]

Finally, the five TMS experts at the time - Peter Baxter, Henry Blofeld, Bill Frindall, Jonathan Agnew and Christopher Martin-Jenkins - each selected their All Time World XIs.

Without typing all five teams out (though I may yet do so if the discussion progresses), it's a curiosity that only two men appear in all five teams: Don Bradman and Jack Hobbs.

For those of you asking the obvious question as to who left Sobers out of their side, it was Aggers.

A further curiosity considering that these selections were all made by gents associated with Test Match Special - more of them picked Barry Richards in their all time team than picked Len Hutton.

would love to see all the five teams whenever you can share them, mate

 

[The Sean]

Regarding the All Time XIs that the five TMS experts selected, we can see the following trends.

Openers: Hobbs makes all five teams, and the other selections are split between Gavaskar, B Richards (two votes each) and Hutton (one vote).

Middle-order: Bradman sweeps the board at first drop, while the rest of the middle order is split between just a few names – Viv Richards is picked in three teams, with Denis Compton, Everton Weekes and Brian Lara in two each. For those of you taking notice and wondering where the last middle-order spot went, one of the selectors picked Sobers at number five.

All-rounders: Most of the teams select multiple all-rounders (CMJ picks four!). And it makes Aggers’ non-selection of Sobers all the more baffling as he picked two all-rounders and still neither of them were Sir Garry. Sobers is picked in the other four teams, Botham makes three, while there is a vote each for Grace, Rhodes, Miller, Procter and Imran.

Wicket-keeper: Knotty edges out his legendary Kent predecessor Godfrey Evans by three votes to two.

Bowlers: Three men dominate – Lillee (three votes), Barnes and Warne (four each). Other than that, there are several bowlers who pick up a vote each – Spofforth, Lindwall, Holding and O’Reilly. Marshall and Hadlee in particular are conspicuous by their absence, Hadlee especially given that TMS voted him into their 40th anniversary dream team alongside Lillee and Warne, but he doesn’t get a single vote here.

 

[The Sean]

would love to see all the five teams whenever you can share them, mate

Will do - I've just posted a summary of the voting in the meantime!

 

[Lillian Thomson]

****ers! make a name with "Test Match Special"
And then mix test and first class cricket
**** list, obviously

When the programme started in 1957 Test Cricket was all they did. Then as domestic one day cricket became a thing in the 60's and ODI's in the 70's they still used the Test Match Special name for whatever they were broadcasting.

 

[The Sean]

OK, so by popular(ish) demand - here are the All Time XIs selected by each of the five TMS experts in 1999. First up, Peter Baxter who was the longtime producer of the BBC's cricket coverage on radio:

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Everton Weekes
Garry Sobers
Alan Knott
Shane Warne
Sydney Barnes
Dennis Lillee
Fred Spofforth

 

[The Sean]

Next, it's the selection of "Blowers" himself - the inimitable Henry Blofeld.

Jack Hobbs
Barry Richards
Don Bradman (capt.)
Denis Compton
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Ian Botham
Alan Knott
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Sydney Barnes

 

[The Sean]

Now it's the turn of the legendary Bearded Wonder, the man who went to his grave crediting Murali with 795 Test wickets and Inzi with a Test batting average of over 50 - scorer and statistician extraordinaire Bill Frindall.

Jack Hobbs
Barry Richards
Don Bradman (capt.)
Denis Compton
Everton Weekes
Garry Sobers
Keith Miller
Godfrey Evans
Ray Lindwall
Shane Warne
Sydney Barnes