The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Daemon]

It also works both ways to be fair.

For example if Ashwin was bowling with no support in India he'd still pick up stacks of wickets, perhaps even more than he already does.

 

[ankitj]

With batsmen, they have to play the bowlers all by themselves regardless of those around him. Being part of a strong line-up means a good chance other batsmen are doing their share of scoring runs and there's less pressure, so to speak. But the batsman's personal success isn't affected the way it is in case of bowlers. It's physical for bowlers.

I was making this argument some time back. Not with lot of conviction, but this is how I sorta feel. Counter argument would be that having a good player with you (think Sehwag in rampaging form), the bowling team may turn defensive and batting partner would benefit as a result.

 

[ankitj]

What a player

The catch Jadeja took in 2nd test of BG trophy to remove Wade (?) is bit underrated. He was about to collide with Mayank yet somehow held onto it. Coming in midst of all the dropped catches, I could barely believe my eyes haha

 

[honestbharani]

It works differently for bowlers in a very real way. A quality bowler in an otherwise meh attack means the opposition can play him out and take on the rest of mediocrity. There's never a sustained spell of pressure from both ends that's needed for wickets. By the end of the day, the standout bowler is too knackered and it keeps building up through a long series. By the midway or the end of the series, even he'd be copping stick along with the rest of the attack.

With batsmen, they have to play the bowlers all by themselves regardless of those around him. Being part of a strong line-up means a good chance other batsmen are doing their share of scoring runs and there's less pressure, so to speak. But the batsman's personal success isn't affected the way it is in case of bowlers. It's physical for bowlers.

I think I agree that its harder for the bowlers, which I guess is your broader point, although I would beg to differ in the specifics, esp. on the batting side.

 

[Noumenon]

I was making this argument some time back. Not with lot of conviction, but this is how I sorta feel. Counter argument would be that having a good player with you (think Sehwag in rampaging form), the bowling team may turn defensive and batting partner would benefit as a result.

Yeah, cricket is a team sport and if there's only one batsman ticking for a team then he has that pressure of hauling the team over. But a fast bowler is physically diminished at the end of the day in way that batsmen and spin bowlers aren't.

 

[Noumenon]

It also works both ways to be fair.

For example if Ashwin was bowling with no support in India he'd still pick up stacks of wickets, perhaps even more than he already does.

Ashwin can turn in 25 over a day from first test to last, without being physically affected in a way someone like Shami or Bumrah would. Not comparable cases.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah, cricket is a team sport and if there's only one batsman ticking for a team then he has that pressure of hauling the team over. But a fast bowler is physically diminished at the end of the day in way that batsmen and spin bowlers aren't.

I think if I were to rank it, I would go it is hardest for fast bowlers, then all bowlers, then the batsmen. But it does not mean it is easy or even moderately easy on any of them.

 

[Victor Ian]

A quality bowler in an otherwise meh attack means the opposition can play him out and take on the rest of mediocrity. There's never a sustained spell of pressure from both ends that's needed for wickets.

If that were the case Murali and Hadlee would have no wickets.

 

[_00_deathscar]

If that were the case Murali and Hadlee would have no wickets.

That’s kind of what elevates them and makes them extra special though...

 

[Noumenon]

If that were the case Murali and Hadlee would have no wickets.

Murali and later Hearth never returned to bowl last spell of the day being out of breath. Like I made myself clear, it's about fast bowling. That you have to go back more than three decades back to name Hadlee obliquely makes my own point. He was an exception and rightly rated among the very best.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Cricket is actually like anime where you get massive power ups when you see your friends doing badly.

 

[honestbharani]

Cricket is actually like anime where you get massive power ups when you see your friends doing badly.

Almost as if its a team game or something, right?

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Sure thing Yamcha

 

[Nintendo]

Shut it yajarobe.

 

[CricAddict]

The catch Jadeja took in 2nd test of BG trophy to remove Wade (?) is bit underrated. He was about to collide with Mayank yet somehow held onto it. Coming in midst of all the dropped catches, I could barely believe my eyes haha

I think it is Gill who tried to collide.

 

[The Sean]

I don’t think I’d even play three quicks in my all-time India XI. I’d be pretty uncomfortable about a spinner coming on first change, sure, and of course I’d have additional seam options as part of my all-time India squad (which, given that we’re picking these teams to play across different conditions against different opposition, is probably what we should be selecting anyway).

However, the strengths of the Indian side are twofold – the immense quality of the batting and a brilliant collection of spinners, and to me the goal must be to maximise both. While Kapil and whoever else of Singh/Nissar/Srinath/Khan/Sharma/Shami/Bumrah were and are top class bowlers, at this (all-time) level that pace attack is hopelessly outmatched against all of Australia, West Indies, England, South Africa, Pakistan and New Zealand whether there are two or three of them playing.

Conversely, however, it seems a waste to only play two spinners when you could play three – making the most of the Indian spin talent pool, which far outstrips the fast bowling stocks, and also strengthening the batting into the bargain if you pick either/both of Ashwin or Jadeja.

To that end, I reckon my XI would go something like:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Kapil Dev
Ashwin
Kumble
Shami
Bedi

Jadeja probably 12th man, and you could happily swap in Gupte/Prasanna/Chandrasekhar for Bedi or Kumble at any point too. Shami is a placeholder for any of the other quicks I mentioned, with an expectation that spot will belong incontestably to Bumrah sooner rather than later.

 

[The Sean]

Oh and hello, it’s been a while, nice to see you all again etc…

 

[Burgey]

Hey mate, great to hear from you. Hope you’re doing well.

 

[honestbharani]

Oh and hello, it’s been a while, nice to see you all again etc…

Glad to see you back posting man. Hope all is well with you?

 

[Gob]

I don’t think I’d even play three quicks in my all-time India XI. I’d be pretty uncomfortable about a spinner coming on first change, sure, and of course I’d have additional seam options as part of my all-time India squad (which, given that we’re picking these teams to play across different conditions against different opposition, is probably what we should be selecting anyway).

However, the strengths of the Indian side are twofold – the immense quality of the batting and a brilliant collection of spinners, and to me the goal must be to maximise both. While Kapil and whoever else of Singh/Nissar/Srinath/Khan/Sharma/Shami/Bumrah were and are top class bowlers, at this (all-time) level that pace attack is hopelessly outmatched against all of Australia, West Indies, England, South Africa, Pakistan and New Zealand whether there are two or three of them playing.

Conversely, however, it seems a waste to only play two spinners when you could play three – making the most of the Indian spin talent pool, which far outstrips the fast bowling stocks, and also strengthening the batting into the bargain if you pick either/both of Ashwin or Jadeja.

To that end, I reckon my XI would go something like:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Kapil Dev
Ashwin
Kumble
Shami
Bedi

Jadeja probably 12th man, and you could happily swap in Gupte/Prasanna/Chandrasekhar for Bedi or Kumble at any point too. Shami is a placeholder for any of the other quicks I mentioned, with an expectation that spot will belong incontestably to Bumrah sooner rather than later.

Can't justify 3 spinners unless it's a dust bowl tbh. Kapil, Zaheer and Bumrah are a decent attack. Ashwin is the first spinner I'd pick. Not sold on the second spinner though you could go with Jadeja if you consider his batting but he is a significant downgrade from Kumble as a bowler and I don't think he'd contribute much with the bat if he was facing another ATG attack. Although Kumble turns the ball in the same direction as Ashwin so maybe Prasanna I guess. Heard some good things about him