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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Half or more of Ponting's career also had fairly meh bowling worldwide.

Smith is clearly ahead of both. He pushes for a place in all time world XI, so he ought to be a lock in Aussie XI.
You say that as if they're different things.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
West Indian Knights

Sir Gordon Greenidge
Sir Conrad Hunt
Sir Viv Richards
Sir Frank Worrell *
Sir Everton Weekes
Sir Gary Sobers
Sir Clyde Walcott +
Sir Curtley Ambrose
Sir Andy Roberts
Rev Sir Wes Hall
Sir Charlie Griffith

In the squad: Sir Richie Richardson, Sir Clive Lloyd

Versus

West Indian Civilians

Desmond Haynes
Roy Fredericks
Brian Lara
George Headley *
Rohan Kanhai
Shiv Chanderpal
Jeff Dujon +
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Courtney Walsh

In the squad: Lance Gibbs, Colin Croft
Shiv - putting the "pal" in Chanderpal.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
My point stands though. The 70s were a fairly dry era for bowling. For half a decade Ponting's career intersected with Ambrose, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, Donald, Pollock..

Ponting '96-'08 > Chappell
Ponting also got to bat in an ATG top 7 and after a gun opening partnership.
 

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
Half or more of Ponting's career also had fairly meh bowling worldwide.

Smith is clearly ahead of both. He pushes for a place in all time world XI, so he ought to be a lock in Aussie XI.
This is a good point. Quite a few people, specifically Aussies are right now advocating or considering to replace Smith for Sachin in atg world XI. So it's ridiculous and not sensible for him to not be in a aussie AT XI.
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Context, lads. I only mentioned those guys in referenced to Chappell's career. Safe to say both got to decimate some uninspiring attacks.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I'm generally fairly biased towards a certain era, but I wouldn't be picking Chappell over Ponting or Smith. That's not to say I wouldn't rather watch him bat.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
England AT XI is way out of India's league, but that's not exactly unexpected given England have been playing Tests for 150 years

as an aside surely Stokes being in England's ATG Test team is a bit of a stretch
A more interesting comparison would be how the all time teams of India and England would have fared during the period India has played test cricket.

I think India is better during the modern era (1970-2021) as AMZ mentioned.

1932-2021 is interesting. England may be better, but it is close.

England

Hutton
Boycott
Barrington
Hammond
Root
Pietersen
Botham
Knott
Laker
Trueman
Anderson


India

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Dev
Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Imran, Hadlee, Kapil weren't ATG yet, Botham and Marshall only came towards the end of the decade, Croft had a very short career. Holding, Garner, and Roberts came in the end of the 70s. That leaves Underwood, Willis, and Snow, which isn't much in the way of superb bowlers.
Yeh, but we were discussing Chappell's career anyhow, which wasn't just in the 70s. He played up til 84.
 

Gob

International Coach
Chappell only played 12 years of test cricket and was never tested in overseas conditions as much as most other great players even of his own era. Will take Ponting over him every time.
Wasn't Chappell head and shoulders above anyone bar Viv and Barry Richards in WSC? He wasn't anything special in England compared to some other great aust batsmen but even there I think he averaged above 40. I always felt Chappell comes ahead of Ponting, Border and Waugh

My AT Australia would be

Lawry
Hayden
Bradman
Chappell
Smith
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

There are so many riches left you can go for a second XI

Taylor
Morris
Ponting
Border
Clarke
Waugh
Healy
Lindwall
Johnson
Cummins
O'Rielly
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
My point stands though. The 70s were a fairly dry era for bowling. For half a decade Ponting's career intersected with Ambrose, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, Donald, Pollock..

Ponting '96-'08 > Chappell
I'm not really tied to one or the other, I'd take either Ponting or Chappell happily in my XI, but I am confused why you keep mentioning "the 70s" when we're discussing Chappell's career when it ran well into the 80s.

Chappell's career intersected with Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Hadlee, Procter, Willis, Botham...
 

Gob

International Coach
Wasn't Chappell head and shoulders above anyone bar Viv and Barry Richards in WSC? He wasn't anything special in England compared to some other great aust batsmen but even there I think he averaged above 40. I always felt Chappell comes ahead of Ponting, Border and Waugh

My AT Australia would be

Lawry
Hayden
Bradman
Chappell
Smith
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

There are so many riches left you can go for a second XI

Taylor
Morris
Ponting
Border
Clarke
Waugh
Healy
Lindwall
Johnson
Cummins
O'Rielly
Heck even a 3rd XI will be decent now I'm thinking of it

Langer
Ponsford
Harvey
Waugh ME
Martyn
Hussey
Marsh
Gillespie
Benaud
Harris
Thompson
 

Gob

International Coach
For England, I'd throw in

Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Gower
Pietersen
Botham
Knott
Barnes
Laker
Trueman
Anderson

Definitely up there with WI, Aust, SA in terms of greatness. Only thing for me is the purpose of selecting these teams. Are we recognizing the achievements over eras or actually going to play a similar AT team and in that case England may fall behind initially since most of their greats are from a very different era and may take a while get accustom to face the pace barrage of something like WI pace attack. Similar case for someone like Barnes to adjust to covered wickets
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Lawry
Simpson*
Bradman
Smith
Miller
Ponting
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Lindwall
Grimmett
McGrath

Trumper
Morris
Harvey
Chappell
Border
Waugh*
Healy +
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
O'Reilly

Hayden
Ponsford
Hassett
McCabe
Clarke
Noble
Benaud*
Marsh +
Turner
Johnston
Spofforth

After that it gets tougher for me as I don't know much about Aus quicks.
 

kyear2

International Coach
For England, I'd throw in

Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Gower
Pietersen
Botham
Knott
Barnes
Laker
Trueman
Anderson

Definitely up there with WI, Aust, SA in terms of greatness. Only thing for me is the purpose of selecting these teams. Are we recognizing the achievements over eras or actually going to play a similar AT team and in that case England may fall behind initially since most of their greats are from a very different era and may take a while get accustom to face the pace barrage of something like WI pace attack. Similar case for someone like Barnes to adjust to covered wickets
Precisely my point. If it's about historical greatness, then sure, England is in with a shout. If it's about playing actual games then they are clearly behind Aus, WI and SA and in a tussle with India.

In most other sports , when they look at all time teams they have a cutoff because past a certain era , they can't compete with modern players or cope with modern conditions.
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
Is India ahead of Pakistan? Pakistan has weaker batting and spin bowling (still pretty good nevertheless), but much better pace bowlers.
I'd say it's a tougher call now than what it was. Kapil/Bumrah is a pretty darn good opening duo. Depends on whether you want to include non-retired players or not.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Precisely my point. If it's about historical greatness, then sure, England is in with a shout. If it's about playing actual games then they are clearly behind Aus, WI and SA and in a tussle with India.

In most other sports , when they look at all time teams they have a cutoff because past a certain era , they can't compete with modern players or cope with modern conditions.
Though its not generally stated cricket is viewed like that too, generally being 1900 as a cutoff. A lot of people would even have the cutoff at 1920.
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, other sports (such as the various codes football) have evolved much, much more (both from a tactical & fitness standpoint) than cricket has over the past 100 years or so.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Lawry
Simpson*
Bradman
Smith
Miller
Ponting
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Lindwall
Grimmett
McGrath

Trumper
Morris
Harvey
Chappell
Border
Waugh*
Healy +
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
O'Reilly

Hayden
Ponsford
Hassett
McCabe
Clarke
Noble
Benaud*
Marsh +
Turner
Johnston
Spofforth

After that it gets tougher for me as I don't know much about Aus quicks.
B.Woodfull
S.Barnes
I.Chappell
M.Waugh
M.Hussey
D.Walters
D.Tallon
J.Gregory
J.Gillespie
J.Thompson
A.Mailey
 

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