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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
so , he is rated highly :)
not with good reason ? (another issue) :dry:
He has been lauded for his excellent record against the WIs. And it is excellent. But it's also misleading, because the majority of those matches WERE NOT against Marshall, Holding, Roberts and Garner, but much weaker bowling attacks.

So, anyone who says "Sunil is the greatest opener ever because he succeeded against the pace might of the WIs in the 70s and 80s" is kind of wrong, or manipulating the truth...
 

sobers no:1

Banned
He has been lauded for his excellent record against the WIs. And it is excellent. But it's also misleading, because the majority of those matches WERE NOT against Marshall, Holding, Roberts and Garner, but much weaker bowling attacks.

So, anyone who says "Sunil is the greatest opener ever because he succeeded against the pace might of the WIs in the 70s and 80s" is kind of wrong, or manipulating the truth...
so the general perception of gavaskar being arguably greatest modern era batsman (along with sobers , pollock , barry, viv, sachin and lara ) is wrong .


hmmm..
gavaskar's primary duty was not making runs , but not to get out. how many balls dd he survive in those matches against mighty pace attack ? ( out of curiosity)
 

Jager

International Debutant
so the general perception of gavaskar being arguably greatest modern era batsman (along with sobers , pollock , barry, viv, sachin and lara ) is wrong .


hmmm..
gavaskar's primary duty was not making runs , but not to get out. how many balls dd he survive in those matches against mighty pace attack ? ( out of curiosity)
 

kyear2

International Coach
Ok. Say we follow this process. Then, during the initial selection of the XI, what incentive do you have to pick Wasim over Waqar? Or Sachin over Lara? Almost 0, right? This is the reason I don't pick Imran as a bowler in my XI, but prefer Hadlee coming in at number 8.
First off, though I rate Sachin over Lara, it is by a hair and there is nothing wrong with picking Lara over Sachin. Sachin also had his inconsistent years, his struggles againts some of the '90's quicks and has gorged on minnow bowling over his career.
Secondly I don't rate Wasim that highly for reasons stated previously and frequently, though fully understand why he was picked by cricinfo for the first xi.
So please don't use the Lara/Sachin, Wasim/Waqar argument like it's a cut and dry case of who was better
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
A Simple study on allrounders:

Their batting average plus their wickets per match (a very good indicator of an allrounder's value to the team) x10. Implying that 5 wickets per match is the same as averging 50 (which of course is debatable).

Qualification: batting average over 20, wickets per match over 1.50. 1000 runs/100 wickets.



GS Sobers (WI) 83.05
Imran Khan (Pak) 78.83
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 77.28
JH Kallis (ICC/SA) 74.37
Shakib Al Hasan (Ban) 72.41
SM Pollock (SA) 71.29
IT Botham (Eng) 71.09
CL Cairns (NZ) 68.69
MH Mankad (India) 68.29
KR Miller (Aus) 67.88
AK Davidson (Aus) 66.86
IK Pathan (India) 66.05
GP Swann (Eng) 65.92
MW Tate (Eng) 65.22
AW Greig (Eng) 64.74
TL Goddard (SA) 64.46
N Kapil Dev (India) 64.18
R Benaud (Aus) 63.82
MG Johnson (Aus) 63.62
Wasim Akram (Pak) 62.45
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ) 62.24
B Lee (Aus) 60.94
A Flintoff (Eng/ICC) 60.38
SCJ Broad (Eng) 59.08
MA Noble (Aus) 59.06
RR Lindwall (Aus) 58.53
G Giffen (Aus) 56.58
WPUJC Vaas (SL) 56.30
HH Streak (Zim) 55.58
RJ Shastri (India) 54.67
W Rhodes (Eng) 52.09
TE Bailey (Eng) 51.38
FJ Titmus (Eng) 51.16
Abdul Razzaq (Pak) 50.35
Intikhab Alam (Pak) 48.88
N Boje (SA) 48.49
AF Giles (Eng) 47.37
JE Emburey (Eng) 45.50
JG Bracewell (NZ) 45.30
R Illingworth (Eng) 43.24


Shakib WAG. Mankad is also shown to be a very valuable player.

It would be interesting to factor in a peak period of 50 matches, which should move Botham up a bit.
 

Michaelf7777777

International Debutant
Not attempting to pre-empt Monk here but my All Time New Zealand XI is as follows

Bert Sutcliffe
Glenn Turner
Stewie Dempster
Martin Crowe
Stephen Flerming (*)
Chris Cairns
Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Ian Smith (+)
Shane Bond
Jack Cowie

12th Man: John R Reid
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Probably have McCullum over Smith. Just as good a wicketkeeper and a much better batsmen for the lower order. Feel that Smith is overrated slightly because he played in the nostalgic eighties.
 

MartinB

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
He has been lauded for his excellent record against the WIs. And it is excellent. But it's also misleading, because the majority of those matches WERE NOT against Marshall, Holding, Roberts and Garner, but much weaker bowling attacks.

So, anyone who says "Sunil is the greatest opener ever because he succeeded against the pace might of the WIs in the 70s and 80s" is kind of wrong, or manipulating the truth...
His record against Australia is similar to his WI Record. All the runs came either in the WSC years or 1985 (year of South African rebel tour - Alderman, Rackerman etc went to South Africa, Lillee, Thompson, Hogg, Pascoe, Dymock etc all recently retired).

In the 1972 World 11 Series (Lillee, Mckenzy), Gavaskar averaged 24 in 4 match's and 1981/1982? against Lillee, Hogg, Lawson? he averaged 19 in 3 match's.

From what I remember in 1981/82?, it was not that Gavaskar got out Quickly (in Adelaide he batted for 2 or 3 hours for 20 odd runs). It was more that Australian bowlers strangled his scoring with a McGrath like line.

Gavaskar was a brilliant defensive batsman, In Australia atleast, he did not drive on the up, he waited for the bowlers to bowl a 4 ball. Gavaskar did well against fast erratic bowlers (Thomson, Clark's), it was perhaps the McGrath type bowler from both ends that could cause him problems.
 

Agent Nationaux

International Coach
Slightly different discussion but still regarding an ATG player.

Has anyone else been as well managed as Steyn? He has played about the same no of ODIs as Tests.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Today's XI

01. WG Grace
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Don Bradman
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Victor Trumper
06. Garry Sobers
07. Imran Khan
08. Allan Knott
09. Shane Warne
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Dennis Lillee

12. Viv Richards
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Today's XI

01. WG Grace
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Don Bradman
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Victor Trumper
06. Garry Sobers
07. Imran Khan
08. Allan Knott
09. Shane Warne
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Dennis Lillee

12. Viv Richards
Today's XI

W G Grace
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Garfield Sobers
Vivian Richards
Adam Gilchrist
Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Keith Miller
 

Jager

International Debutant
Today's 11 - leggies I like

1. Mitchell
2. Simpson
3. Compton
4. Tendulkar
5. Faulkner
6. Du Plessis
7. Oldfield +
8. Benaud*
9. Warne
10. Grimmett
11. O'Reilly

Why did I choose Faf? Because he's my favourite player at the moment and I got lazy, just imagine someone else like Mushtaq Mohammad in there if you want
 

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