The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

Pujara is getting there.

I think we have a tendency to be naturally rate players who do well against the team you support a bit higher than others. That's the only explanation I have for anyone thinking pujara is close to dravid atm. I'd be delighted if he entered that tier but he needs to go on a real tear over the next few years especially overseas.

 

[OverratedSanity]

To be fair Red, think it's only one poster who went after McGrath, I can be wrong, but think the others were more saying Donald was under rated. I have been on record as saying in my opinion McGrath is absolute top tier and that's based on watching him play and his complete record.

With regards to Lillee, there was a lot of hype surrounding him during his career, partly due to his bravado and aura, not unlike IVA. I believe when I first joined the chat, the argument was who was the greatest Lillee or Marshall and I believe a natural correction has taken place. He was an undoubtedly great bowler, just not absolute top tier. There were holes in his record, but he was genuine ATG bowler.

The fact that Lillee was the 'first' of that era's pace bowlers to break out and establish himself on the world stage is what helps him just as much as the aura or the image of the big aggressive fast bowler which he pretty much created. When the other great bowlers of the era naturally look up to you simply because he preceded them helped his reputation a great deal. Not an entirely unearned reputation of course, but it can help cover up some flaws.

 

[jimmy101]

I think we have a tendency to be naturally rate players who do well against the team you support a bit higher than others. That's the only explanation I have for anyone thinking pujara is close to dravid atm. I'd be delighted if he entered that tier but he needs to go on a real tear over the next few years especially overseas.

I actually don't support Australia but I see what you mean. I think my over-rating of Pujara probably comes down to his achievements being really fresh in my memory, Dravid's 10 Test centuries outside of Asia is a real eye-opener and I suppose Pujara still has the opportunity to build up his overseas tally too.

 

[aussie tragic]

The fact that Lillee was the 'first' of that era's pace bowlers to break out and establish himself on the world stage is what helps him just as much as the aura or the image of the big aggressive fast bowler which he pretty much created. When the other great bowlers of the era naturally look up to you simply because he preceded them means helped his reputation a great deal. Not an entirely unearned reputation of course, but it can help cover up some flaws.

Wtf. So you're dismissing John Snow, the reason why Lillee and Thomson took revenge. I'm sick of this made up bs, read some cricket history ffs.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wtf. So you're dismissing John Snow, the reason why Lillee and Thomson took revenge. I'm sick of this made up bs, read some cricket history ffs.

Your post is incomprehensible.

But ill try to be more clear. Guys like Hadlee who are from the same era, cited lillee as their bowling idol because they came onto the scene a bit later and had already seen him bowl and it obviously left an impression. Peer opinion can be a powerful thing when it comes to a player's reputation.

I think wasim being rated so highly among his pace bowling contemporaries is a bit similar to this. And I think its easily arguable that hadlee was better than lilee and ambrose better than wasim, even though they themselves dont admit it because they're basically fanboys.

 

[honestbharani]

Was Ambrose a fanboy of Wasim?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Was Ambrose a fanboy of Wasim?

yep, loves him to bits. Watch some of the interviews he's done. I dont think its exactly the same as hadlee-lillee but still.

 

[jimmy101]

I guess what I originally wrote doesn't have any context now since AT deleted his post.

 

[h_hurricane]

So a quick count over last 20 pages or so.

Sobers, Lillee, McGrath and Dravid not worthy of ATG XI mention.

Who's next, maybe Ponting who played on 2 years too long?

Lillee doesn't make an ATG XI to India on merit. You can still play him if you want.

 

[Coronis]

My stab at a Test XI (2010s)

Cook
Amla
Smith
Kohli*
Williamson
ABdV+
Shakib
Ashwin
Philander
Starc
Cummins

Insanely deep batting. Root, Pujara, Jaddu, Herath & Harris all really unlucky to miss out. Misbah-ul-Haq's contributions can't be forgotten either.

Cook
Amla
Sanga
Smith
Younis
Kohli
Watling
Cummins
Steyn
Anderson
Herath

Did not realise Amla was a test opener. Trying to take longevity and performance into account mine would be:

Cook
Warner
Williamson
Smith
Kohli*
Shakib
Watling+
Ashwin
Philander
Steyn
Anderson

The openers pick themselves, as do Smith and Kohli. It was then between Williamson, AB and Sanga, and I went with Williamson’s weight of runs and playing the entire decade. I wanted an all rounder and Shakib was the obvious choice. Watling had no competition as keeper (unless you wanna sneak AB in there instead). All 3 quicks took over 200 wickets @ under 25 making it pretty simple. Ashwin cinched it over Herath.... just. Apologies to his roundness.

 

[jimmy101]

Did not realise Amla was a test opener.

I'd break any rule to keep Warner out of my side :-)

 

[honestbharani]

yep, loves him to bits. Watch some of the interviews he's done. I dont think its exactly the same as hadlee-lillee but still.

Lol.. never realized it. And I am such a big fan of Ambrose too. Damn... YouTube, here I come.

 

[Logan]

Never said McGrath isn’t an ATG. Just said if McGrath is a Top Tier, Donald should be too. McGrath, Ambrose and Donald were pretty much even.

 

[h_hurricane]

Never said McGrath isn’t an ATG. Just said if McGrath is a Top Tier, Donald should be too. McGrath, Ambrose and Donald were pretty much even.

All sane posters and readers knew that is what you said.

 

[akilana]

It's funny, but last I heard McGrath and Donald played cricket. They didn't play bowling statistics ninja.

The reason Donald is rated below McGrath on his career is not just statistical, it comes from having watched both and taking into account other factors, like the types of pitches they played on and how their contemporaries performed.

The Sachin stats you mentioned are meaningless. McGrath played against Sachin in what, 6 tests IIRC. That's noise.

McGrath was almost as good as Donald in the late 90s. They were virtually inseparable (Donald was faster, McGrath got more bounce but both were super effective). But then in the 00s when the batsmen got the upper hand and pitches flattened out worldwide, McGrath got better. He was better. He just knew how to get batsmen out like nobody else.

I saw a decent chunk of Donald. He was great but suffers in the memory from having played in an era with Ambrose, McGrath, peak Pollock, Waqar and Wasim. He was not clearly better than any of these guys, except for short periods. Unlike Marshall, Donald didn't stand out from the other greats around him. McGrath was clearly the best fast bowler from around 2001/02 to 2007 and the gap between him and everyone else was light years.

And that's why slicing stats is completely meaningless when you're trying to understand why McGrath is rightly rated higher than Donald.

FWIW I rate Donald somewhere around 15th best of all time, but I haven't done a list in ages, which is why the broad range of top 30 or top 15. But fast bowlers who I rate higher than him from the top of my head are McGrath, Marshall, Ambrose, Hadlee, Steyn and Garner. I'd have to think about the others.

Nobody stood out from the rest of the pack in late 90s because they were all equals. There weren’t any great bowlers from 2001 to Steyn’s emergence so it would have been easier to stand out from the ATVG bowlers. I have watched them bowl and I rate Donald higher than McGrath. Any of the 90s bowlers would have stood out in the pre Steyn era. The main reason McGrath gets rated higher is because he played for Australia and had a longer career.

 

[vcs]

Lol.. never realized it. And I am such a big fan of Ambrose too. Damn... YouTube, here I come.

Yeah, I was surprised to hear that. Thought they both debuted around the same time.

 

[Logan]

2005-2015 was the worst time to be a fast bowler. It is really a surprise Dale Steyn managed to perform so well while his peers were light years away.

 

[MrPrez]

I mean, I'm South African and Donald wasn't better than McGrath, lol.

That said, some stats brought up in this thread have been interesting, such as McGrath's poor record in Asia and Donald's remarkable consistency.

I do think we underrate Donald - largely because McGrath was McGrath, Ambrose was a bombastic WI pacer who averaged 21, and Akram also batted.

I think most telling of this would be asking the forum to compare Akram and Donald.

 

[MrPrez]

On a side note, and this may stir the pot a bit, but there are occasions where Aussie posters on this forum who are critical of Indian fans for being biased and overly defensive of local fan favourites may exhibit a bit of this themselves. Just a thought.

 

[harsh.ag]

I was never surprised to see Donald take a bagful of wickets and never surprised if he took a stick and didn't take a wicket.

With McGrath and Ambrose, I was always surprised with the latter.

With Wasim, I just thought "Wonder how many dropped catches?"