The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[harsh.ag]

Smith (c)
Mitchell
Richards
Pollock
Kallis
Nourse
ABdV (w)
Pollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

Smith and Mitchell are 4th innings beasts and worth their weight in gold.

This team would beat Australia in South Africa. To beat them in Australia, replace Pollock with Procter.

 

[stephen]

De Villiers barely kept for SA.
Ames was extraordinary but wasn't as good as Gilchrist. Funnily enough many people would choose Knott over him though.
Sanga wasn't in the same class with the bat as keeper as Gilly.
Flower wasn't anywhere near as good with the gloves.
Dhoni was well below Gilchrist at test level.

So you are stuck with a makeshift/ lesser keeper to keep your batting at Gilchrist's level or you take a hit in your batting to have a keeper at his level. No other player had the all round game as keeper like Gilchrist.

 

[stephen]

This team would beat Australia in South Africa. To beat them in Australia, replace Pollock with Procter.

Traditionally Australia has found it easier to beat SA in SA than in Australia.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This team would beat Australia in South Africa. To beat them in Australia, replace Pollock with Procter.

Bit of a random and bizarre comment

 

[Tom Flint]

Abdv did a fair bit of keeping right? Whilst batting at 5 too until he said he doesn't want to keep anymore then de kock came in anyway?

 

[TheJediBrah]

ABdV should definitely be the keeper in an SA ATG XI IMO

His batting never suffered when he kept and he was more than competent with the gloves. Better than a lot of specialist keepers.

 

[stephen]

Abdv did a fair bit of keeping right? Whilst batting at 5 too until he said he doesn't want to keep anymore then de kock came in anyway?

24 tests. Averaged more with the bat while he kept as well. However, that's less than a quarter of his career.

 

[ankitj]

De Villiers barely kept for SA.
Ames was extraordinary but wasn't as good as Gilchrist. Funnily enough many people would choose Knott over him though.
Sanga wasn't in the same class with the bat as keeper as Gilly.
Flower wasn't anywhere near as good with the gloves.
Dhoni was well below Gilchrist at test level.

So you are stuck with a makeshift/ lesser keeper to keep your batting at Gilchrist's level or you take a hit in your batting to have a keeper at his level. No other player had the all round game as keeper like Gilchrist.

Even so, SA can post a truly #BatDeep lineup to neutralize Gilchrist advantage without compromising their bowling.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yeah, if Gilchrist is a clear upgrade over Knott just because of what he brings with the bat, Pollock is also a clear upgrade over Mcgrath. Can't have it both ways

 

[Red]

Missing a class spinner and Bradman but they're up there very close to the WI.

For real? You don't consider Tayfield a class spinner. Plus Aubrey Faulkner's leggies?

They've got so much spin class in their XI.

 

[stephen]

Abdv did a fair bit of keeping right? Whilst batting at 5 too until he said he doesn't want to keep anymore then de kock came in anyway?

Yeah, if Gilchrist is a clear upgrade over Knott just because of what he brings with the bat, Pollock is also a clear upgrade over Mcgrath. Can't have it both ways

Not really.

Keeping skills are asymptotic - the closer to perfect a keeper gets the less it matters. McGrath was a better fast bowler than Pollock and upgrades on bowling skills really do matter. Dropping one catch a series more than another keeper usually isn't going to matter much. Creating more opportunities and building more pressure will matter a lot.

Anyway, Knott averaged 15 runs less than Gilchrist. The difference there is massive. Ames would be much closer to Gilchrist as a keeper- bat.

People tend to underrate Gilchrist's keeping but he took over from one of the best ever keepers and the difference behind the stumps was barely noticeable.

Gilly ticks all the boxes for a keeper - kept to top quality leg spin, top quality fast bowling and express pace bowling and made very few mistakes. If we ignore his batting he's at worst behind Tallon, Grout and Healy for an Australian keeper, but if he is it isn't by much.

 

[ankitj]

Yeah, if Gilchrist is a clear upgrade over Knott just because of what he brings with the bat, Pollock is also a clear upgrade over Mcgrath. Can't have it both ways

Leave alone Pollock, even Imran is not an upgrade over McGrath. Don't ya know?

 

[Red]

Faulkner was an absolute world class bat and ATVG spinner. One of the truly great ARs, of all time.

Procter, had he been allowed a full test career, would most likely have been acknowledged as the greatest AR of all time.

ABDV averaged MORE (significantly) when he kept, than when he didn't.

Pollock deserves a place as an AR, immense test career as an opening bowler and under-utilised batter.

Kallis makes it as a batsman, let alone his bowling.

So you have 5 incredibly talented all rounders before even thinking about Steyn, Donald and Tayfield, who all must play as the pure bowlers.

IMO the SA atg team is the coolest, love the bowling variation and batting depth. Plus I just love all rounders in general.

 

[Red]

Not really.

Keeping skills are asymptotic - the closer to perfect a keeper gets the less it matters. McGrath was a better fast bowler than Pollock and upgrades on bowling skills really do matter. Dropping one catch a series more than another keeper usually isn't going to matter much. Creating more opportunities and building more pressure will matter a lot.

Anyway, Knott averaged 15 runs less than Gilchrist. The difference there is massive. Ames would be much closer to Gilchrist as a keeper- bat.

People tend to underrate Gilchrist's keeping but he took over from one of the best ever keepers and the difference behind the stumps was barely noticeable.

Gilly ticks all the boxes for a keeper - kept to top quality leg spin, top quality fast bowling and express pace bowling and made very few mistakes. If we ignore his batting he's at worst behind Tallon, Grout and Healy for an Australian keeper, but if he is it isn't by much.

The bolded bit is SOOOO untrue.

 

[stephen]

Abdv did a fair bit of keeping right? Whilst batting at 5 too until he said he doesn't want to keep anymore then de kock came in anyway?

For real? You don't consider Tayfield a class spinner. Plus Aubrey Faulkner's leggies?

They've got so much spin class in their XI.

Perhaps class was the wrong word. Both of those guys are certainly a step down from Warne/Murali and probably O'Reilly and Grimmett as well. Warne/Murali are a fairly large way ahead of other spinners. Most other ATG spinners have operated in far friendlier conditions (uncovered wickets era, worse bats etc...).

In fact CW rated Tayfield 7th:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...er-43-names-countdown-rankings-thread-15.html

Which is great but as I said, a step below the best.

 

[stephen]

Faulkner was an absolute world class bat and ATVG spinner. One of the truly great ARs, of all time.

Procter, had he been allowed a full test career, would most likely have been acknowledged as the greatest AR of all time.

ABDV averaged MORE (significantly) when he kept, than when he didn't.

Pollock deserves a place as an AR, immense test career as an opening bowler and under-utilised batter.

Kallis makes it as a batsman, let alone his bowling.

So you have 5 incredibly talented all rounders before even thinking about Steyn, Donald and Tayfield, who all must play as the pure bowlers.

IMO the SA atg team is the coolest, love the bowling variation and batting depth. Plus I just love all rounders in general.

I do love SA cricket. Smith was one tough bastard, Kallis was continually underappreciated but still remains the second greatest batting all rounder ever. Steyn is my favourite fast bowler alongside Ambrose. And de Villiers could lay claim to being the single most destructive batsman in ODI history.

 

[stephen]

Abdv did a fair bit of keeping right? Whilst batting at 5 too until he said he doesn't want to keep anymore then de kock came in anyway?

The bolded bit is SOOOO untrue.

If the average dropped catch costs a side 45 runs, Gilchrist has to drop a catch more than once every three innings' for Knott's keeping to be worth more than the difference in batting.

 

[stephen]

Personally I think an ATG tri series between the West Indies, South Africa and England would be the most competitive, entertaining cricket on offer.

Imagine Steyn bowling to Viv. Hobbs against Marshall. Kallis vs Sobers.

 

[Red]

If the average dropped catch costs a side 45 runs, Gilchrist has to drop a catch more than once every three innings' for Knott's keeping to be worth more than the difference in batting.

It's not about the average of 45 runs. It's about dropped catches, which drop tests, which drop series.

 

[Red]

Personally I think an ATG tri series between the West Indies, South Africa and England would be the most competitive, entertaining cricket on offer.

Imagine Steyn bowling to Viv. Hobbs against Marshall. Kallis vs Sobers.

We could even forego the Don just to make it fair:

Morris
Trumper
Ponting
Smith
Miller
Harvey
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
OReilly
McGrath

Smith
Richards
Kallis
Pollock
DeVilliers
Faulkner
Procter
Pollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

Greenidge
Worrell
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Garner
Ambrose
Gibbs

Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Compton
Barrington
Ames
Botham
Trueman
Barnes
Snow
Laker