The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

Ive always found the Warne mccullum version of that even more incredible. The **** even knows that mccullum is going to try and sweep it.

 

[CricAddict]

Ive always found the Warne mccullum version of that even more incredible. The **** even knows that mccullum is going to try and sweep it.

Watching it for the first time. Awesome. Love Warne. Damn I miss my 90s days.

 

[ankitj]

Yeah during India in WI series, I remember Ambrose being economical, but didn’t really take many wickets. Tendulkar and Dravid just played him off and went after lesser bowlers.

He never really fired in all cylinders against Asian teams which was a shame.

Classic "hole" in career thar I don't care about. If it was in India it would have some merit given Indian tracks are hard for pacers. In West Indies, I don't see why performance against India matters when he did well against others.

 

[h_hurricane]

Classic "hole" in career thar I don't care about. If it was in India it would have some merit given Indian tracks are hard for pacers. In West Indies, I don't see why performance against India matters when he did well against others.

Garner has a similar "hole" as well. Did so well against everyone everywhere yet against India at home, he averages 43

 

[Slifer]

One test series....

 

[h_hurricane]

One test series....

Exactly my point. A statistical anomaly.

 

[harsh.ag]

Think most people acknowledge that it's only a hole if there is a decent sample size plus with the appropriate context

 

[_00_deathscar]

Ive always found the Warne mccullum version of that even more incredible. The **** even knows that mccullum is going to try and sweep it.

These are pretty cool - would loved to have more like these back in the day too to see the thought process from batsmen/bowlers/captain.

 

[bagapath]

Not sure Ambrose was more accurate than Mcgrath. I think this is an impression created by Mcgrath varying his line more, not an inability to hold the same line.

Mcgrath wasn't better at dismissing a team's best bats (allowing for the fact that he was typically better at taking wickets). See some of the stats breakdowns on wicket quality. Mcgrath was extremely effective at knocking over the top order. If a team's best bats were at the top he was good at taking the big wickets. If not he wasn't. It's a coincidence created by him being a more effective new ball bowler and a less effective old ball bowler (plus competition, mostly from Warne) either way.

Absolutely loved them for their style, class and champion quality. Sometimes I would wonder how cool it would be if all the relentless accuracy and match winning ability in their bowling was also supplemented by good/useful/effective batting skills, and what an awesome unbeatable package such a cricketer would be in any era... great opening bowler... who runs through batting line-ups on any surface... and then comes in as a lower order batsman... scores a quick fire 30 and changes the complexion of the innings.. what an awesome asset he would be for any team... then I would remember that one Sri Richard Hadlee did really do all of that for two decades and he was that package any team would die for... and then I go searching for his past exploits on youtube.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Absolutely loved them for their style, class and champion quality. Sometimes I would wonder how cool it would be if all the relentless accuracy and match winning ability in their bowling was also supplemented by good/useful/effective batting skills, and what an awesome unbeatable package such a cricketer would be in any era... great opening bowler... who runs through batting line-ups on any surface... and then comes in as a lower order batsman... scores a quick fire 30 and changes the complexion of the innings.. what an awesome asset he would be for any team... then I would remember that one Sri Richard Hadlee did really do all of that for two decades and he was that package any team would die for... and then I go searching for his past exploits on youtube.

Honorary Indian all rounder?

 

[kyear2]

Absolutely loved them for their style, class and champion quality. Sometimes I would wonder how cool it would be if all the relentless accuracy and match winning ability in their bowling was also supplemented by good/useful/effective batting skills, and what an awesome unbeatable package such a cricketer would be in any era... great opening bowler... who runs through batting line-ups on any surface... and then comes in as a lower order batsman... scores a quick fire 30 and changes the complexion of the innings.. what an awesome asset he would be for any team... then I would remember that one Sri Richard Hadlee did really do all of that for two decades and he was that package any team would die for... and then I go searching for his past exploits on youtube.

It is and would be useful to have a good no. 8 and / or no. 9 who can hold a bat, but CW seems to really over play the bowling all rounder / bat deep sentiment. McGrath was part of the greatest team ever, period, so obviously his batting skills were not missed at all. He had Gilly and Warne ahead of him, what more do we need?

His or Curtly's batting skills also really shouldn't be used to diminish them in any way. When ur batting 10 or 11, just focus on your bowling, that's why you are in the team, and none of the all rounders were ever really good enough be be legit very good batsmen in their bowling prime. In a team you need 1 decent bat among your bowlers and another who isn't a rabbit, who can chip in when required, the rest just choose base on bowling acumen.

For me, and I know I'm in the vast majority here, but it's much more useful and more critical to team success to have batsmen (and the ocasional Warne) who are proficient to great in the cordon, at least 2 and ideally 3 than to be able to bat all the way to 11.

Think of it this way, if you are counting on your no's 10 and 11 to save the team on anything close to a consistent basis, you have bigger problems and your batsmen aren't doing their job. If you are counting on having a great cordon, you know your bowlers are doing theirs.

On the rare occasion I've seen test teams stick with underperforming batsmen because of the value they brought to the cordon , never seen that for underperforming bowlers who could bat.

So would it be nice to get a few extra runs from the tail, sure,, but it's not going to change many games. Prefer to pick at least two bowlers strictly and primarily for the bowling (and yes Hadley v McGrath is a tough one because they are so close), but is it as critical as dropping Bradman at 30 in the cordon because you didn't factor in the slip fielders while constructing the team?

But that's just my 2 cents worth.

 

[bagapath]

Hadlee was a superb fielder as well

Botham was a rockstar of a bat when he was at his bowling prime

��

 

[Red]

Didn't want to de-rail Fred's leftie thread, but:

Lawry
Smith
Sangakkara
Pollock
Lara
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Wasim
Johnston
Underwood

Shakib

 

[kyear2]

Hadlee was a superb fielder as well

Botham was a rockstar of a bat when he was at his bowling prime

��

Ah yes, during his "prime" he was quite special, brilliant at slip as well.

Wasn't he more of a batting or genuine all rounder though?

 

[bagapath]

Ah yes, during his "prime" he was quite special, brilliant at slip as well.

Wasn't he more of a batting or genuine all rounder though?

As genuine an all rounder as any who ever lived. Averaged 50 runs and five wickets per test. And caught everythin. His primary job was bowling, though.

Then he ate everything. And became all round.

 

[Logan]

In his first 50 Tests, Botham averaged 39 with the bat and scored 11 Test centuries. He also took 239 wickets at an average of 23 and took 19 five wickets.


Even Sobers or Imran were not genuine match winners with both batting and bowling at the same time for such an extended period of time.

 

[bagapath]

5 year peak XI

This team I am choosing without statsguru's help. So obviously this can be tweaked

Arthur Morris (the early career) or H Sutcliffe anytime
Matty Hayden (sometime in 2000s)
Don Bradman (any five year slice of his career)
Steve Smith (a slice from 2010's)
Gary Sobers (1960s)
Ian Botham (pre 1983)
Adam Gilchrist (2000s)
Richard Hadlee (1980s)
Malcolm Marshall (1980s)
Muralitharan (2000s)
Syd Barnes (1900s)

 

[_00_deathscar]

5 year peak XI

This team I am choosing without statsguru's help. So obviously this can be tweaked

Arthur Morris (the early career) or H Sutcliffe anytime
Matty Hayden (sometime in 2000s)
Don Bradman (any five year slice of his career)
Steve Smith (a slice from 2010's)
Gary Sobers (1960s)
Ian Botham (pre 1983)
Adam Gilchrist (2000s)
Richard Hadlee (1980s)
Malcolm Marshall (1980s)
Muralitharan (2000s)
Syd Barnes (1900s)

Without checking Statsguru also, I suspect Imran had a better 5 year peak than Malcolm Marshall did...

Here's a good article on it - doesn't have a very specific 5 year period (I remember reading at one point in a ~5 year or ~25-30 test period or something period he was averaging as low as 13 or 14).
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22507448/imran-khan

Ponting had one of the highest peaks I recall, but that average may have been boosted by general batting averages around that period (I think Smith has a similar peak average right now) - still think he probably should at least be in consideration for this team regardless, incredible player at his peak.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Is it possible to create an All Round XI? So each batsman must at least be a decent bowler, each bowler must at least be a half decent bat, plus a keeper who can bat.

Kallis, Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Gilchrist, Warne are locks. Probably Botham, Kapil too, certainly also in the reckoning.
Who opens? Who plays middle order?

 

[Gowza]

Is it possible to create an All Round XI? So each batsman must at least be a decent bowler, each bowler must at least be a half decent bat, plus a keeper who can bat.

Kallis, Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Gilchrist, Warne are locks. Probably Botham, Kapil too, certainly also in the reckoning.
Who opens? Who plays middle order?

Procter, Barlow, Shaun pollock, Faulkner, shakib, Goddard, cairns, jr Reid, Davidson