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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Just going to comment on this. While I agree that you probably don't need the 5 specialist bowlers I don't agree that in isolation no. 6 and 7 are too high for Gilchrist and Imran. Both were easily good enough to be top 6 batsmen, even in an ATG team (in Imran's case probably only during his peak batting phase though tbf)
The problem is that when Imran was a good enough batsman to do that his bowling wasn't too special. All rounders are fantastic for most sides, but the higher you go in cricket, the more specialists are important.

At club and grade level, all rounders absolutely dominate, and even at first class level to an extent. Look at James Hopes. He was a brilliant player for Queensland but he wasn't good enough with either bat or ball to step up to the next level. He was only just below what was needed but because he wasn't quite there in either discipline he'd never have succeeded at test level. Mitchell Marsh is much the same. His bowling is almost good enough and his batting is within a stone's throw of being good enough but since neither is at that level he really is weakening the test side when he plays.

For an all time team, playing against similarly all time opposition, all rounders have to be picked on their primary discipline - 1-6 for their batting and 8-11 for their bowling. The 8-11 are basically going to be there to let the number 6/7 maximise their runs. They won't be making too many against an AT attack anyway.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Just going to comment on this. While I agree that you probably don't need the 5 specialist bowlers I don't agree that in isolation no. 6 and 7 are too high for Gilchrist and Imran. Both were easily good enough to be top 6 batsmen, even in an ATG team (in Imran's case probably only during his peak batting phase though tbf)
The beauty of having Gilchrist at 7 is added depth and that he is better than any other no. 7. At 6 there would be countless better options, including Sobers, Kallis, Hammond etc who can all serve as a 5th bowler. And factoring in how many overs the 5th bowler would be responsible for, and the importance of having 6 genuine batsmen they would be more efficient at that role than having Gilly and Imran at 6 and 7 respectively.

And while Bradman would be the focus of the opposition attack, Sobers would probably be the most important player on the team as arguably the 2nd best bat and the one protecting the tail, 5th bowler who could bowl spin or pace depending on the conditions and need and your best slip (and possibly best overall) fielder standing at 2nd to the pacers and at 1st for Warne / Murali.
Don't how it's a consideration not having him in the team.
 
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Spark

Global Moderator
Gilchrist was good enough for #3 let alone #6. Batted there for an entire series against a very solid SL side in SL which was won 3-0 (with every Test being quite tight). Obvs wouldn't be picked there in this side (or any, most likely) though. Just that he was definitely good enough to do that if required.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Bradman
Sobers
Gilchrist

should be definite locks in any all time XI for being the very best no3 bat, no.6 batting all-rounder and no.7 wk-bat in the history of test cricket

Viv Richards
Warne

should be next for being the most influential middle order bat and leg spinner of their time, marginally better than other equally great batsmen and spinners from history.

Two out Hobbs, Hutton, Gavaskar should open the batting. At least one of them should be a lock!

The other middle order bat, pacers, one more spinner, and if necessary, one opener are all subjective.

This is how I see it
 
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TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Gilchrist was good enough for #3 let alone #6. Batted there for an entire series against a very solid SL side in SL which was won 3-0 (with every Test being quite tight). Obvs wouldn't be picked there in this side (or any, most likely) though. Just that he was definitely good enough to do that if required.
I agree with everything you said here but having watched almost that entire series and being the **** that I am I feel obligated to point out that Gilly only actually batted at 3 in one innings of that series and batted at 7 (or once, 8) for the other 5 innings.

However that time he did bat at 3 (enabled by a Ponting back strain) was an incredible innings, came in with Aus effectively 1 for -100 in the second innings and made a nearly run-a-ball 140-odd.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
I agree with everything you said here but having watched almost that entire series and being the **** that I am I feel obligated to point out that Gilly only actually batted at 3 in one innings of that series and batted at 7 (or once, 8) for the other 5 innings.

However that time he did bat at 3 (enabled by a Ponting back strain) was an incredible innings, came in with Aus effectively 1 for -100 in the second innings and made a nearly run-a-ball 140-odd.
Haha my memory turned that into "the entire series" for some reason
 

Coronis

International Coach
Bradman
Sobers
Gilchrist

should be definite locks in any all time XI for being the very best no3 bat, no.6 batting all-rounder and no.7 wk-bat in the history of test cricketer

Viv Richards
Warne

should be next for being the most influential middle order bat and leg spinner of their times, marginally better than other equally great batsmen and spinners from history.

Two out Hobbs, Hutton, Gavaskar should open the batting. At least one of them should be a lock!

The other middle order bat, pacers, one more spinner, and if necessary, one opener are all subjective.

This is how I see it
Doesn’t come into it for me personally.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Bradman
Sobers
Gilchrist

should be definite locks in any all time XI for being the very best no3 bat, no.6 batting all-rounder and no.7 wk-bat in the history of test cricketer

Viv Richards
Warne

should be next for being the most influential middle order bat and leg spinner of their times, marginally better than other equally great batsmen and spinners from history.

Two out Hobbs, Hutton, Gavaskar should open the batting. At least one of them should be a lock!

The other middle order bat, pacers, one more spinner, and if necessary, one opener are all subjective.

This is how I see it
Mine is slightly different

May end up with a similar team, but though process would be a bit different.

Don Bradman
Garry Sobers

No possible arguments for those 2, so locks and automatic selections.

Malcolm Marshall
Len Hutton

These two are the next two names on the list and the last of my absolute automatic slots. Hobbs may be acclaimed as the greatest, but Hutton was the best opener of all time in my opinion. The was the 1st great opener to play in the modern era with modern rules, lbw being chief among them. He faced and succeeded against the best bowlers of the pre and immediate post WW2 era , while dealing with a devastating injury after the war. Marshall was in my opinion quite simply the greatest bowler in history. He had every tool in the box and knew when and how to use them. He succeeded everywhere even the placid pitches of the sc, especially India. He took the WI from a great team to the undisputed best of the era and one of the top 2 ever up to the point. The only series lost while he opened the bowling was the one he didn't play. For me there were two great phenomenons that shaped and dominated the modern game Bradman and invincibles and the WI pace quartet and Marshall was unquestionably the best among them.

Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards

They were quite a few keepers whose glovework was better than Gilchrist, and some would argue that should be the primary consideration when selecting for the position, but when we factor in the importance of the batting requirement of the position in the modern era it boils down to basically Gilly and Knott and Gilly kept successfully to Warne and was hence at a minimum test quality and the gulf in the batting is just too much to ignore for the no. 7 position. Shane is neck and neck with Murali for the spin slot, and it's almost impossible to separate them in that discipline. What Warne then brings to the table with his batting and ability to stand in the cordon is what easily pushed him over the top. Sachin is locked in a similar battle with his contemporary BCL, some would argue Lara was more explosive and possibly even more gifted, but Sachin wins it by his greater application, technique and consistency. Viv's position is seen by some as under threat by young Mr Smith, but for now for me at least, IVA still stands as the greatest ever player of fast bowling, and he faced off against the very best and the most destructive batsman along with Gilchrist who played the game at a high level.

The opening slot for me is a tough discussion between Hobbs, Gavaskar and yes, Baggy would hate this, Barry Richards. And the selection comes down to if it's based on accolade or picking a team to actually take the field and more or less boils down to Hobbs or Richards.

The two remaining fast bowling slots are similarly right and between Hadlee, Steyn and McGrath. Steyn likely takes the second spot and while McGrath definitely deserves the final one and was likely a hair better than Hadlee, his batting was so terrible and Hadlee was so similar in style that it should be an easy decision, but it really still isn't. At least not for me.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Mine is slightly different

May end up with a similar team, but though process would be a bit different.

Don Bradman
Garry Sobers

No possible arguments for those 2, so locks and automatic selections.

Malcolm Marshall
Len Hutton

These two are the next two names on the list and the last of my absolute automatic slots. Hobbs may be acclaimed as the greatest, but Hutton was the best opener of all time in my opinion. The was the 1st great opener to play in the modern era with modern rules, lbw being chief among them. He faced and succeeded against the best bowlers of the pre and immediate post WW2 era , while dealing with a devastating injury after the war. Marshall was in my opinion quite simply the greatest bowler in history. He had every tool in the box and knew when and how to use them. He succeeded everywhere even the placid pitches of the sc, especially India. He took the WI from a great team to the undisputed best of the era and one of the top 2 ever up to the point. The only series lost while he opened the bowling was the one he didn't play. For me there were two great phenomenons that shaped and dominated the modern game Bradman and invincibles and the WI pace quartet and Marshall was unquestionably the best among them.

Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards

They were quite a few keepers whose glovework was better than Gilchrist, and some would argue that should be the primary consideration when selecting for the position, but when we factor in the importance of the batting requirement of the position in the modern era it boils down to basically Gilly and Knott and Gilly kept successfully to Warne and was hence at a minimum test quality and the gulf in the batting is just too much to ignore for the no. 7 position. Shane is neck and neck with Murali for the spin slot, and it's almost impossible to separate them in that discipline. What Warne then brings to the table with his batting and ability to stand in the cordon is what easily pushed him over the top. Sachin is locked in a similar battle with his contemporary BCL, some would argue Lara was more explosive and possibly even more gifted, but Sachin wins it by his greater application, technique and consistency. Viv's position is seen by some as under threat by young Mr Smith, but for now for me at least, IVA still stands as the greatest ever player of fast bowling, and he faced off against the very best and the most destructive batsman along with Gilchrist who played the game at a high level.

The opening slot for me is a tough discussion between Hobbs, Gavaskar and yes, Baggy would hate this, Barry Richards. And the selection comes down to if it's based on accolade or picking a team to actually take the field and more or less boils down to Hobbs or Richards.

The two remaining fast bowling slots are similarly right and between Hadlee, Steyn and McGrath. Steyn likely takes the second spot and while McGrath definitely deserves the final one and was likely a hair better than Hadlee, his batting was so terrible and Hadlee was so similar in style that it should be an easy decision, but it really still isn't. At least not for me.
I dunno about that. I mean Viv’s record isn’t really outstanding against anyone bar England.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Another interesting fact about Viv is that if you take out one year from his career (1976), he averages only 45. But then why would one take it away from him ? :)
 

Contrarian

Cricket Spectator
Agree about Archie Jackson but don't know how to fit McCabe though I want to. Tough to leave Greg Chappell; will just read a bit on Harvey.
 

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