The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kapil's a pretty overrated ODI batsman on here. He averaged 24 for his career ffs.

Those 6 years he was averaging around 28 at 100 strike rate.
Equivalent of 32 at 110 in 90s, i think.

 

[harsh.ag]

So the ranking system is wrong. Isnt it?

Aproximate stats of Kapil and Srikanth for the said period.
Kapil 21/innings at 100
Srikanth 29 at 75
Difference of 8 points in Runs and 25 points in strike rate.

I was just checking batting rankings of 80s, and i found Kapil topping among indians. Just posted it here. And i think its not completely irrelevant.

Just saying that someone doing the bulk of run scoring at the top of the order at a slower strike rate is probably more important than someone like Kapil who was obviously a giant at his assigned role.

So, the rankings aren't wrong. Without Kapil's quick finishes, India probably wouldn't have won so many games. And, as you point out, for those six years, his stats were damn good.

 

[Red]

Kapil's a pretty overrated ODI batsman on here. He averaged 24 for his career ffs.

He's not overrated by sensible people. He would never had legitimately been one of the ten best ODI bats in the world at any point in his career.

What he is perfect for though is coming in at 8 wickets down and belting the **** out of 5 overs.

 

[ankitj]

Borges notes in the DoG thread that Barnes got a fivefer in 48% of matches he played. It's got me thinking, what would a bowler version of Bradman's record look like? Barnes's record is ridiculous and it might be the closest a bowler has reached to Bradman levels, but how good does it have to be to get there?

48% of innings. 89% of matches.

 

[andmark]

48% of innings. 89% of matches.

Yeah, I wasn't sure and was typing from memory. 48% Of matches felt more normal, but then again nothing about Sydney Barnes was normal.

 

[AndrewB]

Splitting hairs a bit here: he took a 5-fer in 67% (18/27) of the matches he played; in 22% of them (6/27) he took two 5-fers.

 

[Bolo]

To the people giving Procter serious props: do you think he would have achieved more in tests than Imran? I feel like he was twice as gifted as a bowler and batsman, but if he managed more as a bowler (and it's not clear he would), it would be by a really slim margin. As a bat, I doubt he would do as well, and likely significantly worse.

 

[srbhkshk]

To the people giving Procter serious props: do you think he would have achieved more in tests than Imran? I feel like he was twice as gifted as a bowler and batsman, but if he managed more as a bowler (and it's not clear he would), it would be by a really slim margin. As a bat, I doubt he would do as well, and likely significantly worse.

IMO partly it's also the case that while you can be a better bowler than McGrath and a better batsman than Sobers, your stats would probably not reflect that because physically you are putting far more into the game and there are limitations to how much you can. So if Procter really outdid Imran in one parameter he'd probably by necessity do at least somewhat worse in the other even if he was better in both disciplines.

 

[a massive zebra]

For the purposes of this comparison, he wouldn't need to be the best in the world, just the best in his team. I think this might have been the case in his youth. He was definitely his side's leading wicket taker at stages.

Well that was not what you said in the post I was responding to. Grace probably was Gloucestershire's best bowler for a few seasons in his youth, but his brother E.M. was always considered the better fielder. W.G. captained Gloucestershire in virtually all his matches so I guess that makes him the best captain in his side simply because there was no competition.

 

[Bolo]

Well that was not what you said in the post I was responding to. Grace probably was Gloucestershire's best bowler for a few seasons in his youth, but his brother E.M. was always considered the better fielder. W.G. captained Gloucestershire in virtually all his matches so I guess that makes him the best captain in his side simply because there was no competition.

I meant this as best within his county team, county being the premier form of cricket at that stage and the closest equivalent to national for Dev. Dev was originally being compared only to his teammates.

Fair enough on the fielding. Someone else raised it, but I didn't know. Being best or second best is fairly minor when it comes to fielding though, unless you have Jonty Rhodes turning up for Pakistan.

IMO partly it's also the case that while you can be a better bowler than McGrath and a better batsman than Sobers, your stats would probably not reflect that because physically you are putting far more into the game and there are limitations to how much you can. So if Procter really outdid Imran in one parameter he'd probably by necessity do at least somewhat worse in the other even if he was better in both disciplines.

True. Everyone underachieves in one discipline. Except Imran, who overachieved in both. Not a smooth ride though.

I think we already saw this from Procter as he focused more on his bowling. His FC average is fairly low

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

To the people giving Procter serious props: do you think he would have achieved more in tests than Imran? I feel like he was twice as gifted as a bowler and batsman, but if he managed more as a bowler (and it's not clear he would), it would be by a really slim margin. As a bat, I doubt he would do as well, and likely significantly worse.

100 tests
415 wickets at 23
12 x 100s 35avg

2nd greatest allrounder, Best Bowling AR

This is how i rate Procter.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

And Procter is a more guaranteed ATG than Barry Richards

 

[smash84]

how much did procter play outside of SA? There would be a good chance his stats might suffer on some of the roads outside SA.

 

[stephen]

Would Proctor have performed as well with either the bat or ball at test level though?

He could have ended up with similar batting stats to someone like Hadlee, which were excellent... for a number 8. Averaging 36 in first class cricket is pretty good, but it's not like that guarantees batting ability. Miller basically averaged 50 at first class level but averaged 37 in tests.

 

[Bolo]

how much did procter play outside of SA? There would be a good chance his stats might suffer on some of the roads outside SA.

Played half his career in county. Rated RSA and county about equal. Said the internationals were a big boost to county strength, but there was less intensity.

Also a really easy place to bowl tbf, but...

He could seam and swing it. Mostly used swing, but his seam looked vicious from what I've seen.
Had some serious gas (although would have only been for a decade or so before he turned into FM). Mostly didn't use it though- nagging swing habit from England.
Was a quality offspinner as well. Bowled more spin than seam late career after injuries. Took 9 in an innings bowling spin once.

So ya, he would have adapted okay

 

[trundler]

Would Proctor have performed as well with either the bat or ball at test level though?

He could have ended up with similar batting stats to someone like Hadlee, which were excellent... for a number 8. Averaging 36 in first class cricket is pretty good, but it's not like that guarantees batting ability. Miller basically averaged 50 at first class level but averaged 37 in tests.

Yeah but Miller played different roles at FC and test levels. He barely bowled at all when he started. Plus it's clear he was a better batsman than his stats suggested. Harvey is a surprisingly low average too. Maybe something there.

Proctor was probably a better bat than Imran but not bowler. Imran's average is obviously inflated and he wasn't as much of a batsman as Miller. I reckon he would've had mid-career Botham like stats.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Barry Richards averaging 45 with bat - very good not ATG

Similarly Procter underperforming

Averaging 31 with bat and 26 with ball
- Still ATG of Kapil class.

See, Procter is more guaranteed ATG than Barry.

 

[Coronis]

Procter did fine in WSC in only 4 matches, did wonderful in both county and RSA first class cricket during one of the strongest periods for both of them. He'd be perfectly fine. Here in an article recalling his 6 consecutive centuries, you can also see he consistently performed with both bat and ball at the same time.

 

[trundler]

Procter did fine in WSC in only 4 matches, did wonderful in both county and RSA first class cricket during one of the strongest periods for both of them. He'd be perfectly fine. Here in an article recalling his 6 consecutive centuries, you can also see he consistently performed with both bat and ball at the same time.

Would you say he was more like Miller or Hadlee?

 

[smash84]

Procter did fine in WSC in only 4 matches, did wonderful in both county and RSA first class cricket during one of the strongest periods for both of them. He'd be perfectly fine. Here in an article recalling his 6 consecutive centuries, you can also see he consistently performed with both bat and ball at the same time.

I think it is much easier to do worse in international cricket than it is in domestic cricket. By all accounts international cricket is a significant step above domestic cricket everywhere.