The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

Great teams and write up Watson

Find it interesting that you consider Miller ok to bat at 5 but Botham not good enough for 6.

 

[watson]

Great teams and write up Watson

Find it interesting that you consider Miller ok to bat at 5 but Botham not good enough for 6.

Allan Border’s role at No.6 is to consolidate the innings and protect the tail. This allows Keith Miller to act as a ‘pinch hitter’ and therefore accelerate the innings. A slightly weaker middle-order, but stronger bowling attack, is justified because the batting skills of Adam Gilchrist make-up the deficit.

If Keith Miller gets out early then there is Border-Gilchrist-Lindwall to follow. In other words the depth in batting allows the team to regain initiative. If Botham gets out early then it's Alan Knott and not much else. Ian Botham could bat at No.5 but he would be out of position. Keith Miller batted as high as No.3 on the odd occasion.

Keith Miller is also a superior bowler to Ian Botham and therefore more difficult to leave out.

Lastly, Shane Warne and Bill O'Reilly cannot be omitted from any ATG Aussie side for obvious reasons. They were the best. The inclusion of Keith Miller allows both spinners to be played.

 

[smash84]

Australia
01. Bob Simpson
02. Bill Lawry
03. Don Bradman*
04. Greg Chappell
05. Keith Miller
06. Allan Border
07. Adam Gilchrist+
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Shane Warne
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Bill O’Reilly

Comments
Bill Lawry just edges out Victor Trumper as he has a proven technique and temperament against genuine fast bowling. It is not clear how Victor Trumper would cope with a new ball attack of Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding, or Alan Donald and Neil Adcock. Bob Simpson and Bill Lawry also have a wonderful record as opening partners, and are second only to Jack Hobbs and Herbert Sutcliffe.

Allan Border’s role at No.6 is to consolidate the innings and protect the tail. This allows Keith Miller to act as a ‘pinch hitter’ and therefore accelerate the innings. A slightly weaker middle-order, but stronger bowling attack, is justified because the batting skills of Adam Gilchrist make-up the deficit.

The most difficult choices were leaving out Glenn McGrath and Alan Davidson for Dennis Lillee and Ray Lindwall. However, there is little need for two ‘corridor’ bowlers so Dennis Lillee takes the new ball with Ray Lindwall who is almost equivalent to Alan Davidson in batting. Both these fast bowlers are superior to Alan Davidson in bowling.


England
01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Walter Hammond
04. Dennis Compton
05. Maurice Leyland
06. Peter May*
07. Alan Knott+
08. Hedley Verity
09. John Snow
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

Comments
It was tempting to play Len Hutton at No.5 because he nominated himself to bat in that position while drafting his own ATG England team in 1977. However, Len Hutton deservedly gets his preferred No.2 spot over Herbert Sutcliffe because of his record against Lindwall and Miller. Hammond, Compton, Leyland, and May are expert middle-order batsman and I can’t imagine that either Herbert Sutcliffe or Len Hutton would be a significant improvement on any of them if played out of position in a real Test match. Leyland is an unusual choice but remains one of England’s best players of spin bowling. He is famed for his skill and ease when batting against Bill O’Reilly and Clarrie Grimmett.

Ian Botham is omitted because he is not good enough to bat at No.6 and would subsequently leave the tail vulnerable. He is also inferior to John Snow, Fred Trueman, and Sydney Barnes in bowling. Harold Larwood is not selected because his only significant series coincided with atypical field placings. He makes way for John Snow who dominated more than one away series in their own right. His 27 wickets at 18.66 runs a piece against Garfield Sober’s team in the West Indies (1967-68), and his 31 wickets at 22.83 runs a piece against Bill Lawry’s side in Australia (1970-71) remain pivotal to English fast bowling lore.

There is very little difference between the skills of Jim Laker and Hedley Verity. However, Hedley Verity is more able to bat at No.8 and was revered by Bradman who admitted that he ‘did not have a breaking point’ like other great bowlers.


West Indies
01. Gordon Greenidge
02. Roy Fredericks
03. Viv Richards*
04. Brian Lara
05. George Headley
06. Garfield Sobers
07. Jeff Dujon+
08. Malcolm Marshall
09. Michael Holding
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Lance Gibbs

Comments
The first difficulty was deciding who to partner Gordon Greenidge in the opening spot. Roy ‘Kid Cement’ Fredericks gets the nod because he had the skill and audacity to counter-attack the fast bowlers of the 1970s.

The second difficulty was deciding between Curtly Ambrose and Andy Roberts. Curtly Ambrose is preferred because his brilliance kept the West Indian team great for far longer than they should have been.

Lastly, Jackie Hendricks is a brilliant wicket keeper, but neither he nor Malcolm Marshall are a natural No.7. Consequently the agile Jeff Dujon comes into the team because of his unblemished record that lasts a full decade. His batting average of 31.94 is suitably adequate.


South Africa
01. Barry Richards
02. Bruce Mitchell
03. Jacques Kallis
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Dudley Nourse*
06. Aubrey Faulkner
07. John Waite+
08. Mike Procter
09. Hugh Tayfield
10. Alan Donald
11. Neil Adcock

Comments
This team virtually picks itself with the only difficulty being the selection of Bruce Mitchell over Graeme Smith.

Because John Waite and Mike Procter follow Aubrey Faulkner the batting skills of Shaun Pollock are not required. Neil Adcock therefore comes into the team as he matches Alan Donald for pace, skill, and aggression.


India
01. Sunny Gavaskar
02. Virenda Sehwag
03. Rahul Dravid
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Vijay Hazare
06. Vinoo Mankad
07. Farouk Engineer+
08. Kapil Dev*
09. Javagal Srinath
10. Erapalli Prasanna
11. Bhagwath Chandrasekhar

Comments
Since India has a lack of quality fast bowlers there is little choice but to select attacking spinners such as Erapalli Prasanna and Bhagwath Chandrasekhar who are expensive but both capable of bowling an ‘unplayable ball’. There is little difference in skill between Bhagwath Chandrasekhar and Subhash Gupte. It is significant that their Strike Rates in England , Australia, and the West Indies are similar or better than their Strike Rate in India. This is unusual for an Indian spinner and hence gives both bowlers an edge over other spinners such as Anil Kumble. However, Bhagwath Chandrasekhar gets the nod as it was his magnificent bowling in 1971 that gave India their first series win in England.


Pakistan
01. Saeed Anwar
02. Hanif Mohammad
03. Younis Khan
04. Javed Miandad
05. Inzamam ul-Haq
06. Mushtaq Mohammad
07. Imran Khan*
08. Wasim Bari+
09. Wasim Akram
10. Saqlain Mushtaq
11. Waqar Younis

Comments
Younis Khan gains the No.3 spot as he averages 50.81 in that position. Zaheer Abbas was a prime candidate but was not included because of his dismal record against pace bowling. In 15 innings against the West Indies he averaged only18.50. When facing Richard Hadlee’s New Zealand he averaged slightly worse, 17.83.

Saqlain Mushtaq was preferred over Abdul Qadir because of his better consistency. The off-spin of Saqlain Mushtaq also allows the inclusion of Mohammad Mushtaq who averaged 29.22 with his leg-spin.

The No.5 spot came down to a two way tussle between Inzamam ul-Haq and Yousuf Youhana. Inzamam ul-haq is included because of his slightly better record against fast bowling.


New Zealand
01. Glenn Turner
02. Stewie Dempster
03. Bert Sutcliffe
04. Martin Crowe
05. Martin Donnelly
06. John Reid*
07. Daniel Vettori
08. Richard Hadlee
09. Ian Smith+
10. Shane Bond
11. Jack Cowie

Comments
The selection of the New Zealand team was straight forward with the only consideration being whether Chris Cairns or Daniel Vettori should gain the No.7 spot. Daniel Vettori gives the attack balance and variety and is therefore included.


Sri Lanka XI
01. Sanath Jayasuriya
02. Marvan Atapattu
03. Kumar Sangakarra
04. Aravinda de Silva
05. Mahela Jayawardene*
06. Thilan Samareewa
07. Prasanna Jayawardene+
08. Chaminda Vaas
09. Ashantha de Mel
10. Rumesh Ratnayake
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Comments
In order to win a Test match the skills of Kumar Sangakarra will need to be uninterrupted by wicket-keeping. The talented Prasanna Jayawardene therefore comes into the side. Ashantha de Mel is included because he is apparently the only Sri Lankan bowler of genuine pace and accuracy.Lasith Malinga was considered but offers no real benefit over Rumesh Ratnayake who gained good respect in the 1980s.

great post

 

[watson]

Thanks Smalishar

 

[marc71178]

Keith Miller is also a superior bowler to Ian Botham and therefore more difficult to leave out.

Really? 3 wickets per match?

 

[NUFAN]

Yeah very enjoyable read Watson. I like how you made your justifications as the players you often talked about were the players I was most curious as to why you included them.

I have to ask you though Watson, what does Herath have to do to be included? I'm suspecting that you wanted 3 quicks and figured de Silva, Samareewa and Jayasuriya could offer some spin support for Murali.

 

[watson]

Yeah very enjoyable read Watson. I like how you made your justifications as the players you often talked about were the players I was most curious as to why you included them.

I have to ask you though Watson, what does Herath have to do to be included? I'm suspecting that you wanted 3 quicks and figured de Silva, Samareewa and Jayasuriya could offer some spin support for Murali.

I guess that was the thinking - on a turning wicket Samaraweera and Jayasuriya would be able to give ample support to Murali. And on a seaming wicket the team has 3 quicks.

However, my knowledge of Sri Lankan cricket is not good, so I could be easily persuaded with Herath.

 

[watson]

Really? 3 wickets per match?

I think that this is fertile ground for a new thread: 'Who was the better bowler - Keith Miller or Ian Botham?' Would you like to start it marc?

Now that I think about it a young Ian Botham was impressive. So now I'm not so sure. However, Keith Miller's average as a new ball bowler was 22.97, that's pretty damned good.

But the main point remains - Ian Botham did not cope well with 2 quality fast-bowlers operating at either end. Holding and Roberts, then Holding and Marshall simply took him apart. The same can be said of Akram and Waqar. Just check out his average against the West Indies - 21.40 over 20 Test matches is not good enough for a No.6 batsman.

 

[Jager]

That's in relation to batting though watson - reckon Miller's head and shoulders higher as a bowler regardless though.

 

[Jager]

From everything I've read, he was never described as a medium pacer. I think he was a bit above mid-range in terms of pace.

I always imagined him as someone who bowled at about ~130 clicks.

 

[watson]

I always imagined him as someone who bowled at about ~130 clicks.

Judging from the footage I've seen I'd agree with that. Not quite as fast as Wasim Akram though.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

I think there is one 4- minute video of Davidson bowling, he looked 135-ish; hard to judge though

 

[marc71178]

Now that I think about it a young Ian Botham was impressive. So now I'm not so sure. However, Keith Miller's average as a new ball bowler was 22.97, that's pretty damned good.

Yes until you see how few wickets relatively speaking he took for the number of games he played.

If my new ball bowler (and pseudo God looking at the way some people seem to treat him, building an AT side around him FFS) only took 3 wickets a match he wouldn't be my new ball bowler for long.

 

[Jager]

The man was a mercurial genius with a body irreparably damaged by war - what a physique he had though and what courage to bowl through the agony in his back - he used to push a disc back into place at the top of his run up before unleashing another thunderbolt

 

[Jager]

What I am saying Marc is that had he not been crippled by his wartime antics to the point where he was unable to bowl in some matches, he would have taken 5+ wickets a match. Obviously didn't though because of his back, but one can only dream of the havoc he would have caused if not for the war - same applies to the great Hedley Verity

 

[smash84]

What I am saying Marc is that had he not been crippled by his wartime antics to the point where he was unable to bowl in some matches, he would have taken 5+ wickets a match. Obviously didn't though because of his back, but one can only dream of the havoc he would have caused if not for the war - same applies to the great Hedley Verity

Would you give the same benefit of doubt to other players whose careers were cut short by injury?

Would you rate Shane Bond higher than Miller then?

 

[Prince EWS]

Here's an all-time eleven consisting purely of players who played for New South Wales:

1. Bob Simpson
2. Victor Trumper
3. Don Bradman
4. Neil Harvey
5. Allan Border
6. Keith Miller
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Alan Davidson
9. Ray Lindwall
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

Others: Steve Waugh, Mark Taylor, Arthur Morris, Michael Clarke, Doug Walters, Richie Benaud, Charlie Turner, Monty Noble, Fred Spofforth, Richard Quee Chee etc etc.

A lot of those guys played for other states as well, and some of them weren't even primarily New South Wales players so I'm basically just pulling my dick, but I thought I'd toss it out there so fellow Blues could do the same.

 

[Prince EWS]

Here's an all-time eleven consisting purely of players who played for New South Wales:

1. Bob Simpson
2. Victor Trumper
3. Don Bradman
4. Neil Harvey
5. Allan Border
6. Keith Miller
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Alan Davidson
9. Ray Lindwall
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

Others: Steve Waugh, Mark Taylor, Arthur Morris, Michael Clarke, Doug Walters, Richie Benaud, Charlie Turner, Monty Noble, Fred Spofforth, Richard Quee Chee etc etc.

A lot of those guys played for other states as well, and some of them weren't even primarily New South Wales players so I'm basically just pulling my dick, but I thought I'd toss it out there so fellow Blues could do the same.

If you want to limit it to those who actually grew up in and debuted for the state then all you need to do is sub in Steve Waugh or possibly Richie Benaud for Keith Miller; he's the only one who's really "cheaty".

Border and Gilchrist are definitely more known for their work with other states but they were legitimate products of NSW who got poached.

 

[Red]

Victorian XI

Bill Lawry
Bill Woodfull
Neil Harvey
Lindsay Hassett
Bill Ponsford
Warwick Armstrong
Billy Murdoch
Shane Warne
Merv Hughes
Damian Fleming
Bill Johnstone

Paul Reiffel


Notes-
- A lot of Bills
- Batting good, bowling a lot weaker than NSW

 

[ankitj]

Since I am bored, here are my teams:

Australia XI: Simpson, Ponsford, Bradman, Ponting, Chappel, Gilchrist, Miller, Davidson, Warne, Lillee, McGrath

England XI: Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Compton, Barrington, Botham, Ames, Trueman, Barnes, Laker, Lohmann

India XI: Gavaskar, Merchant, Dravid, Tendulkar, Hazare, Dhoni, Mankad, Dev, Kumble, Nissar, Prasanna

Pakistan XI: Anwar, Hanif, Miandad, Abbas, Inzamam, Imran, Lateef, Akram, Younis, Mahmood, Qadir

South Africa XI: Richards, Mitchell, Kallis, G. Pollock, Nourse, Lindsay, S. Pollock, Procter, Steyn, Tayfield, Donald

West Indies XI: Greenidge, Worrell, Lara, Headley, Richards, Sobers, Dujon, Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, Holding