The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

You missed out my earlier point that stated that the Aussies team of the 90s wasn't a product of Border's work ethic as you mistakenly believe. It was a result of the talent identified by the Chappells et al in the 80s that was to prove fruitful in the 90s. Besides, the Australian system was and always has been very strong so the captain really doesn't have much say in the system. Lillee found many Shield matches to be much more intense than some of the international matches that he played so it was always part of the Australian system. Not that Border came out with a magic wand. And yes, Border himself also had some say in the selection of players during his time (as I believe the captain should have).

of course i read your point earlier. but ignored it cos this is plain wrong. none of border's successors - the waughs, taylor, healy, boon - were blooded before his time. chappells had nothing to do with that. please get your facts right.

It is a little silly to call Imran's leadership to just be force of personality and nothing else. His understanding of the game was outstanding (and he borrowed his style from Ian Chappell). Dickie Bird recently came out with his team and I doubt he made Imran the captain of his side because of force of personality.

dickie bird is not the greatest judge of cricket. i dont have to take his word at face value.

imran had as much tactical knowledge as any captain worth his salt. but it is his man management style that i am primarily talking about. he was authoritative and he lorded over his semi-educated/illiterate/ not-so-great young team members. more confident, rebellious characters would not have accepted his style.

What happened to NZ when Fleming was in charge? What happened to India (in ODIs) when Dhoni became in charge? They started to win a lot more and a lot of times with very ordinary teams because they could get the best out of the players. It had nothing to do with smooth transitioning from Ganguly to Kumble to Dhoni. And what smooth transition are you talking about and who are you trying to kid? The transition where Ganguly himself was kicked out of the team because he had rifts with the team management and Rahul Dravid became captain (the episode that you conveniently choose to ignore and paint it as a SMOOTH transition? .

sure. you can add dravid. i was trying to keep the sentence short. not trying to hide anything. there was never an issue of any former captain playing under the other in india. ganguly getting dropped was due to his poor form and had nothing to do with a power transition. unlike in pakistan where wasim akram was threatened with a mutiny by the players under him. so was miandad. how many times have you seen non-pakistani cricketers bitch about their teammates in public? and now compare that with the internal politics of pakistan team you will understand my point. imran created headless chicken out of his teammates and they haven't stopped fighting till date.

 

[the big bambino]

The Chappells, though great players, haven't been helpful to the rebuilding of Australian cricket. The stories of G Chappell's malignant influence are told in India and Australia. You reckon Watson's a cancer...

The only "input" Ian Chappell provided the rebuilding team in the mid to late 80s was to bag it from the commentary box. Specifically I remember him ridiculing Merv Hughes when Botham took to him in 86/87. Merv's subsequent fightback and success is one of the sweeter stories and I recall his career, in part, as a riposte to Chappell's contempt. I loved the Chappells as players but my attitude to the both borders on hate when I see how they looked over the demise of our cricket and did nothing to help it. Well maybe G Chappell and then only latterly and without success. Ian Chappell just played the part of the spoiling, deriding pundit and he's gone off completely in my estimation.

 

[bagapath]

Y They started to win a lot more and a lot of times with very ordinary teams because they could get the best out of the players. It had nothing to do with smooth transitioning from Ganguly to Kumble to Dhoni.

please look at the stats of wasim, waqar, miandad and qadir. their averages improved marginally when they played under other captains than imran.

here is imran's claim to fame:

he won a series in england: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran
he won a world cup: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran

in both instances, kapil was saddled with weaker bowling attacks; that makes his wins more significant.

he won a series in india: was it such a big deal? so did david gower - in a more convincing manner, 2-1, and not in a close game - and he did it before imran
he did not lose a series against west indies - he did not win any either

so all these achievements point to a good captaincy record and nothing out of ordinary

among the skippers from late 70s to early 90s he ranks third behind clive lloyd and allan border. (if I don't count Brearley)

for failing to leave a good team behind due to their bad man management skills, imran khan and viv richards come third and fourth despite some significant wins and, in case of richards, never losing a series.

 

[kyear2]

lawl. Getting touchy are we

By teaching some other things, you mean to say that he taught them reverse swing?

Or how to get the ball condusive to it.

In terms of character, professionalism and propper player management skills he doesn't measure up to Worrell.

 

[smash84]

sure. you can add dravid. i was trying to keep the sentence short. not trying to hide anything. there was never an issue of any former captain playing under the other in india. ganguly getting dropped was due to his poor form and had nothing to do with a power transition. unlike in pakistan where wasim akram was threatened with a mutiny by the players under him. so was miandad. how many times have you seen non-pakistani cricketers bitch about their teammates in public? and now compare that with the internal politics of pakistan team you will understand my point. imran created headless chicken out of his teammates and they haven't stopped fighting till date.

haha....dude, you are clearly out of your depth here when talking about the politics of Pakistan cricket. Your point is so stupid that it is not even funny. If your point is to be taken at face value then why were there mutinies BEFORE Imran took over captaincy as well? Why were there headless chickens before Imran took over captaincy? The system was always broken and Imran gave it support and allowed it to flourish for a decade. The PCB was as bad back then as when he left but because there was nobody of Imran's stature around they couldn't really do much about it except let it lapse back to it original state.

And really even if it is to be assumed that the Chappells didnt have anything to do with identifying talent (I was relating something that Burgey had pointed out so maybe I could be wrong) but the Aus have always had a system in place where the transition has been smooth.

And besides, handing over captaincy to somebody is the board's decision. Not a single player's so your point regarding smooth transition is quite irrelevant here.

 

[smash84]

Or how to get the ball condusive to it.

In terms of character, professionalism and propper player management skills he doesn't measure up to Worrell.

In terms of character and professionalism how is Worrell superior? Just because he was the first black man to lead the WI on the field?

So he did show others how to get the ball conducive to reverse swing? Which when the rest of the world caught up with it, was something marvelous otherwise it was cheating

 

[smash84]

please look at the stats of wasim, waqar, miandad and qadir. their averages improved marginally when they played under other captains than imran.

here is imran's claim to fame:

he won a series in england: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran
he won a world cup: so did kapil dev and he did it before imran

in both instances, kapil was saddled with weaker bowling attacks; that makes his wins more significant.

he won a series in india: was it such a big deal? so did david gower - in a more convincing manner, 2-1, and not in a close game - and he did it before imran
he did not lose a series against west indies - he did not win any either

so all these achievements point to a good captaincy record and nothing out of ordinary

among the skippers from late 70s to early 90s he ranks third behind clive lloyd and allan border. (if I don't count Brearley)

for failing to leave a good team behind due to their bad man management skills, imran khan and viv richards come third and fourth despite some significant wins and, in case of richards, never losing a series.

lol wut? Are you saying that Gower and Kapil were great captains?

 

[bagapath]

lol wut? Are you saying that Gower and Kapil were great captains?

Of course not. And since Imran achieved the same milestones as them I don't consider him a great skipper either. Come on. It is clear in my post.

 

[kyear2]

Of course not. And since Imran achieved the same milestones as them I don't consider him a great skipper either. Come on. It is clear in my post.

Captaincy is so subjective, is it about results, tactical ability or player management skills?

For me at the end of the day, a captain and his results are as good as the players around him.

 

[smash84]

Of course not. And since Imran achieved the same milestones as them I don't consider him a great skipper either. Come on. It is clear in my post.

haha.....and you failed to mention that Imran never plunged anywhere near as low as Kapil and Gower . And you filled your post with with some very dubious statistics which . Gower got whitewashed 5-0 by the WI and Kapil too got a pretty good bashing from them so I am not sure what your point is. Besides both of them have a win loss ratio much less than 1 which Imran doesn't so as usual you are just being disingenuous

 

[bagapath]

Captaincy is so subjective, is it about results, tactical ability or player management skills?

For me at the end of the day, a captain and his results are as good as the players around him.

Agree with both points.

I think Imran had as much tactical mastery as any good skipper. His results were also as good as they could be in the Windies dominated era. His man management skills were too autocratic and tailored to suit the pakistan players of that era.

Since that style is not right for all combos, and because his results and tactical skills are not anyway significantly superior to his peers, I don't think he was a great skipper. Merely a good one.

 

[kyear2]

Pick your team then the best slip cordon from among them.

Yes I see the cordon as being important to a teams success, I have heard some argue that Wasim was not as great as he could have been because Pakistan never had the catching support that Marshall, Mcgrath, Lillee, Ambrose ect had, that in itself speaks volumes. I personally think it was more than just that, but catching support does make a difference and few things demoralise a team more that a dropped catch in the slips.

As I have said if I have two equal players up for one position, Warne and Murali or Chappell and Pollock for example, I will use the fact that Chappell and Warne were superb and very good slippers respectively as a tie break between the two players. I fail to see what is wrong with that argument. At a hypothetical ATG level vs great opposing batsmen and with fast bolwers like Lillee, Marshall ect having a great cordon is a must and I believe of greater importance with these great players than a great captain.

 

[smash84]

I have always felt that the slip cordon is an outcome of the bowling that you possess. If you have bouncy pitches or bowlers who regularly create those sort of chances behind the wicket then your slip cordon will be trained for that. Of course then you have people like Mark Waugh who are genuinely good catchers and who will do well with catching regardless of where you put them.

 

[bagapath]

In my dream team, when Marshall gets ready to bowl and Gilly is standing 20 yards behind the stumps, I have Bradman at point and Hobbs at cover. Murali is at mid off or mid on. And Hadlee stands 10 yards to the right of the square leg umpire. Sobers is at short leg. Gavaskar, Richards, Warne and Lara all stand in the slips. Sometimes Imran replaces Murali and Lillee steps in for Hadlee but the field remains pretty much the same for the first over.

 

[harsh.ag]

I have always felt that the slip cordon is an outcome of the bowling that you possess. If you have bouncy pitches or bowlers who regularly create those sort of chances behind the wicket then your slip cordon will be trained for that. Of course then you have people like Mark Waugh who are genuinely good catchers and who will do well with catching regardless of where you put them.

I think Warne, Sobers and Viv is a pretty good slip cordon. Plus we can always have 12th man Hammond, Kallis or Ponting to supplement that lot.

 

[Red]

Slips are vital and should play in prominent role in selection.

Where you have two players of equal batting ability and one is great in the slips and the other is poor, it's a big consideration.

G. Chappell v Tendulkar at #4 in an ATG side is an example. I view them as on par as batsmen, so I'll take Chappell's outstanding slip fielding every time.

 

[smash84]

But I do like Harsh's point that you can have your`12th man as an awesome fielder as well and put him in whatever position on the field that you want to

 

[bagapath]

Of course he is the best captain. Denied a series win in the caribbean in the 1980s due to cheating umpires and the only one to probably take the WI to sword at their home in the 1980s. Series wins in England, India, and SL. Great eye for picking talent and excellent man manager. And not being stupid enough to declare and lose the match (like Garry Sobers ).

thats not true. he didnt win the series in sri lanka. that was a drawn series. when SL visited PAK in '91 Pak beat them in home conditions.

Dont worry smali. I wont say "as usual you are just being disingenuous" (though I may think that)

 

[bagapath]

speaking of ATG teams and slip catching, watch this video; courtesy our robelinda

Dennis Lillee vs Pakistan 1976/77 - YouTube

 

[kyear2]

Greg Chappell was absolutely amazing in the slips, a huge factor why he makes my second team.