The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

What was the reason for Worrell, Weekes, Walcott and Sobers getting knighthoods? I can sort of understand Worrell, but the others?

 

[watson]

A composite AT XI using recent named XI's in this thread and using XI's listed in sigs shows an interesting trend. No Tendulkar. It's a very small sample but using the teams listed on this page and the XI's of coronis, D.O.G., Watson and myself the only unanimous picks would be Bradman, Sobers and Marshall with Warne and Hobbs just missing from one. Tendulkar made just one of those teams (mine). A composite team would be.

Jack Hobbs (5)
Len Hutton (4)
Don Bradman (6)
Graeme Pollock (3)
Viv Richards (3)
Garry Sobers (6)
Adam Gilchrist (4)
Malcolm Marshall (6)
Shane Warne (5)
Dennis Lillee (3)
Glenn McGrath (3)

As ususal the two middle order slots and the two fast bolwer slots behind Marshall were the closest and most varied contests. After Zimbabwe will do an open vote fo an AT XI similar to the ones conducted for the different nations, or one similar to how Cricinfo did their selection with each person naming their first two XI's with 6 points for a fist team vote and 2 for a place in the second team. Probably the latter.
Just a reminder, the official team we selected using Benauds method was : Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Gilchrist, Imran, Marshall, Warne and Mcgrath.

Which is odd because Tendulkar was voted in a recent CW poll to be the second best batsman after Bradman. I think that Sobers came third.

 

[honestbharani]

A knights XI

Sir John Berry Hobbs
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Donald George Bradman*
Sir Everton de Courcy Weekes
Sir Isaac Vivian Alexander Richards
Sir Garfield St Aubrun Sobers
Sir Clyde Leopold Walcott+
Sir Ian Terence Botham
Sir Richard John Hadlee
Sir H.D.G Leveson Gower
Sir Alec Victor Bedser

Needed Leveson Gower for some spin. Was tempted by Cardus.

Where is Sir Ravindra Jadeja?

 

[watson]

Walter Hammond selected his 'Best Ever XI' while writing 'Cricket My World' (1947). It's quite interesting;

The trouble with choosing a 'Best Ever' XI is that one does get so side-tracked with memories of the players! But how about this:

01. Grace
02. Trumper
03. Bradman
04. Ponsford
05. Ranjitsinhji
06. Macartney
07. Gunn
08. Tate
09. Spofforth
10. Oldfield
11. Blythe

Not enough bowlers, perhaps? I should like Larwood, Barnes, Gregory - but who to omit? Besides - would the other side ever get them out?

 

[harsh.ag]

A knights XI

Sir John Berry Hobbs
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Donald George Bradman*
Sir Everton de Courcy Weekes
Sir Isaac Vivian Alexander Richards
Sir Garfield St Aubrun Sobers
Sir Clyde Leopold Walcott+
Sir Ian Terence Botham
Sir Richard John Hadlee
Sir H.D.G Leveson Gower
Sir Alec Victor Bedser

Needed Leveson Gower for some spin. Was tempted by Cardus.

Sir Wes Hall for Gower? Sobers can bowl spin. It still boggles my mind that Hammond didn't get knighted. Too much shagging, eh?

 

[harsh.ag]

Walter Hammond selected his 'Best Ever XI' while writing 'Cricket My World' (1947). It's quite interesting;

No Barnes, O'Reilly, Larwood, Veirty, Grimmett. Hammond was awesome. Nice that he took Macartney. It's always Oldfield for the guys from that era. Must have been something special.

 

[the big bambino]

Leyland's tour of WI was horrible but doesn't really expose that he had weakness in handling pace. Other English batsmen also failed often in that tour including Hammond. Leyland played fast bowlers like Farnes and Larwood well in county games.

Fair point that I overlooked.

 

[watson]

No Barnes, O'Reilly, Larwood, Veirty, Grimmett. Hammond was awesome. Nice that he took Macartney. It's always Oldfield for the guys from that era. Must have been something special.

Also a moderate surprise was that he rates Maurice Tate as the best pace bowler of 'all time' despite playing along side Larwood;

But I know this: in my World XI of All-Time, as well as Bradman at No.3, I want Maurice Tate (1924 vintage) to open the bowling.
He took 2700 wickets and made over 21000 runs; he played in a Test match at 40 years of age; and if you think you know a better cricketer, then let's him of him! (page 167)

Hammond also thought Oldfield as Tallon's superior;

One man who is sure of his place is Bertie Oldfield behind the stumps. His successor in the Australian side, Don Tallon, holds the record for dismissing 12 men in one match; but no one will ever surpass Oldfield's faultless speed in stumping or his easy way of standing up to fast bowling or co-operating with the slow bowlers.

 

[morgieb]

Doesn't Oldfield have some sort of ridiculous stumping record.

 

[watson]

Doesn't Oldfield have some sort of ridiculous stumping record.

54 Tests / 72 caught / 52 stumped

I dunno, but that looks like an awesome ratio to me.

 

[Coronis]

54 Tests / 72 caught / 52 stumped

I dunno, but that looks like an awesome ratio to me.

Pretty awesome, however, these are the test wickets taken by Australians while he was playing. Still amazing accomplishment, but we were very spin heavy in his day.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. Barry Richards
3. Sir Donald Bradman
4. Sir Viv Richards
5. Sir Garfield Sobers
6. Graeme Pollock
7. Alan Knott
8. Shane Warne
9. Dennis Lillee
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Malcolm Marshall

Who gets the new ball?

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Who gets the new ball?

Lillee at first change just for pissing purpose

 

[Coronis]

Mike Procter - even if he didn't get to play enough tests he deserves to be in any ATG XI. 6 centuries in consecutive innings. 4 hat-tricks in his career. Twice he scored a century and took a hat-trick in the same match. Once, scoring a century before lunch and taking a hat-trick later the same day. Unbelievable. WAG.

Jack Hobbs
Herb Sutcliffe
Don Bradman*
Graeme Pollock
Wally Hammond
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist+
Mike Procter
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

Batting all the way down to 10. An amazing pace attack, plus Warne and Sobers. Loving the R-L-R-L combo in the middle order too. 4 excellent slips as well - Hammond, Sobers, Procter and Warne.

 

[Gowza]

Mike Procter - even if he didn't get to play enough tests he deserves to be in any ATG XI. 6 centuries in consecutive innings. 4 hat-tricks in his career. Twice he scored a century and took a hat-trick in the same match. Once, scoring a century before lunch and taking a hat-trick later the same day. Unbelievable. WAG.

Jack Hobbs
Herb Sutcliffe
Don Bradman*
Graeme Pollock
Wally Hammond
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist+
Mike Procter
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

Batting all the way down to 10. An amazing pace attack, plus Warne and Sobers. Loving the R-L-R-L combo in the middle order too. 4 excellent slips as well - Hammond, Sobers, Procter and Warne.

I've also got Procter in my XI, but i have barry opening instead of sutcliffe, viv for wally and imran for mcgrath.

1 Jack Hobbs
2 Barry Richards
3 Don Bradman
4 Graeme Pollock
5 Viv Richards
6 Garry Sobers
7 Adam Gilchrist
8 Mike Procter
9 Imran Khan
10 Malcolm Marshall
11 Shane Warne

I get the same R-L-R-L combo in the middle order. for the bowling you've got Imran and Marshall bowling right arm fast, Sobers being able to bowl left arm pace as well as left arm orthodox and chinaman, Procter bowling his right arm fast and offies and Warne bowling leg spin. pretty decent coverage with the ball in terms of variation (not suggesting to use Sobers and Procter's spin all the time but it's there if you want it). With the batting they're all pretty aggressive batsmen. You've got a lot of quality slippers with both the Richard's, Sobers, Procter, Warne, Pollock could also field at slip, Hobbs and Bradman were great fielders to.

 

[kyear2]

Actually like this a lot.

 

[smash84]

I've also got Procter in my XI, but i have barry opening instead of sutcliffe, viv for wally and imran for mcgrath.

1 Jack Hobbs
2 Barry Richards
3 Don Bradman
4 Graeme Pollock
5 Viv Richards
6 Garry Sobers
7 Adam Gilchrist
8 Mike Procter
9 Imran Khan
10 Malcolm Marshall
11 Shane Warne

I get the same R-L-R-L combo in the middle order. for the bowling you've got Imran and Marshall bowling right arm fast, Sobers being able to bowl left arm pace as well as left arm orthodox and chinaman, Procter bowling his right arm fast and offies and Warne bowling leg spin. pretty decent coverage with the ball in terms of variation (not suggesting to use Sobers and Procter's spin all the time but it's there if you want it). With the batting they're all pretty aggressive batsmen. You've got a lot of quality slippers with both the Richard's, Sobers, Procter, Warne, Pollock could also field at slip, Hobbs and Bradman were great fielders to.

I like this team. Bats all the way down to number 11

 

[watson]

There isn't really anything to suggest that Warne was better than Murali (at least as a bowler).

And would you like to make a case as to why Imran would be a level below Marshall, Warne and Sobers as a cricketer?

- smalishah

Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler, but it would be a brave person who would suggest that he was Marshall's equal or better. I do find this a bid odd because Imran's raw bowling stats are superior in some respects. But there you go.

Imran can't be compared to Warne or Sobers because their skills were completely different. However, we can say that Imran's main opposition to the No.8 spot in the ATG XI team are Richard Hadlee and Mike Procter. And this would be after a convincing case has been made for the mandatory inclusion of a bowling-allrounder in the bottom 4, rather than another pure bowler like Lillee, McGrath, Donald, Akram, Waqar, or Barnes.

 

[smash84]

Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler, but it would be a brave person who would suggest that he was Marshall's equal or better. I do find this a bid odd because Imran's raw bowling stats are superior in some respects. But there you go.

Imran can't be compared to Warne or Sobers because their skills were completely different. However, we can say that Imran's main opposition to the No.8 spot in the ATG XI team are Richard Hadlee and Mike Procter. And this would be after a convincing case has been made for the mandatory inclusion of a bowling-allrounder in the bottom 4, rather than another pure bowler like Lillee, McGrath, Donald, Akram, Waqar, or Barnes.

The point is that a bowling all rounder who is an ATG fast bowler adds pretty much as much to the side as does another ATG fast bowler and then brings batting to the table. I don't see what Akram, Lillee, Donald, Waqar or McGrath bring to the table that Imran doesn't while being one of the most outstanding leaders in cricket as well as being a very dependable bat. Imran's bowling is pretty much as good as any pure fast bowler so having him in doesn't hurt at all.

 

[smash84]

Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler, but it would be a brave person who would suggest that he was Marshall's equal or better. I do find this a bid odd because Imran's raw bowling stats are superior in some respects. But there you go.

Imran can't be compared to Warne or Sobers because their skills were completely different. However, we can say that Imran's main opposition to the No.8 spot in the ATG XI team are Richard Hadlee and Mike Procter. And this would be after a convincing case has been made for the mandatory inclusion of a bowling-allrounder in the bottom 4, rather than another pure bowler like Lillee, McGrath, Donald, Akram, Waqar, or Barnes.

And as you say Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler. Throughout the whole decade of the 1980s Imran has a better average and better Strike rate than any other bowler (including Marshall).

The point is that a bowling all rounder who is an ATG fast bowler adds pretty much as much to the side as does another ATG fast bowler and then brings batting to the table. I don't see what Akram, Lillee, Donald, Waqar or McGrath bring to the table that Imran doesn't while being one of the most outstanding leaders in cricket as well as being a very dependable bat. Imran's bowling is pretty much as good as any pure fast bowler so having him in doesn't hurt at all.