The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[Daemon]

Flintoff would never be used at the death if McGrath, Garner and Akram are in the same side. He would be used exactly as Symonds was - to get through the middle overs cheaply.

There is a reason sides stack batting down to 7 or 8. A fifth bowler has less impact than a batsman in that position. Versatility is key in LO cricket.

And I'm not even necessarily arguing fort Symonds here. I'm arguing that picking a bowler at number 7 is less useful than picking a better batsman.

I'm not picking Flintoff in my side, merely pointing out why it's wrong to use stats the way you did to compare the two.

 

[stephen]

Why don't you not extend (a) to #7 batsman won't be needed as much with the bat with a top 6 of Tendulkar, Viv, Kohli, ABdV etc while a 5th bowler almost always has to bowl a decent chunk of overs?

Look for someone who can change the match both with the bat and the ball at #7. Someone like Flintoff is a far better candidate for that than someone like Symonds. (b) doesn't really apply. It would apply in a Kapil vs Symonds debate.

The truth is that the number 7 is the least important position (if the keeper doesn't occupy it). If you pick a bowler there, they're going to have the least impact. If you pick a batsman there they're unlikely to face too many balls. The truth is that any side with the top 6 we're talking about and 4 if the best ODI bowlers of all time is not going to lose often. Whether you go for a stronger batsman like Symonds or a stronger bowler like Kapil makes little difference to the result in most cases.

My argument is that a better batsman will have a bigger impact more often than a better bowler will. I'm fine if others want to argue the opposite. That's the value of someone like Watson in a real team - you get someone world class in both disciplines.

The only thing I'll disagree with is that Jayasuriya belongs in the first XI outside of specific conditions. There were better ODI openers and he was no better than Viv as a bowler. He was largely ineffective with the ball away from home as well.

 

[honestbharani]

I like having Hussey at 7 if we have to go down that path. Hussey over Bevan for that role coz he has more hitting range. But then Bevan also offers you decent left arm wrist spin which can be useful as a 6th or 7th bowling option.


Sachin
Sanath
Viv
Virat
AB
Bevan
MSD (wk)
Warne
Wasim
Lee
Ambrose


Will be a gun side as it covers most main options required. Will be interesting to see this side play with today's rules. And Bevan/Sachin/Sanath/Viv can do a decent 5th and 6th bowlers role.

 

[stephen]

Lee at 10 seems interesting.

 

[honestbharani]

Not when you realize the others were better batsmen.

 

[stephen]

I mean there were better bowlers than him.

 

[Victor Ian]

This is all time great teams with at least 4 ATG bowlers. The pressure in the game is WC finals level. The 7th batsman is often in with the job half done and many balls to face. You dont want an Afridi like raffle at that position. If mcgrath, akram, garner and murali havent scuppered your will to live then someone like kapil isnt breaking through. If the first four have hobbled you, a fifth bowler, like flintoff doesnt matter. Id go as far as playing only part timers as 5th bowler and stacking the top with pure batsmen. Id back ponting to handle 7 better than anyone else not in the team if that was his job.

 

[bagapath]

I think ODI as a format has evolved very fast. Test cricket (and first class cricket) has had changes taking place over several generations. While the difference between a test played in 1880s and now may be huge, the changes have been gradual; because, to start with, two innings cricket was a beautifully structured game that didn't need major tinkering every few years.

The ODI format, on the other hand, has gone through many changes, the one bouncer per over rule, changing field restrictions, no of overs per innings, super sub, free hit after no ball etc. all in less than 50 years.

I would rather have three different XIs to play ODIs to represent the different schools of thought prevailing in the respective eras in terms of approaching limited overs cricket.

The early ODI XI (1970 to 1986)

Greenidge
Haynes
Viv Richards
G. Chappell
Clive Lloyd *
Kapil Dev
Dujon +
Holding
Garner
Lillee
Qadir

The ODI era XI (1987-2003)

Tendulkar
Gilchrist +
Ponting *
Jones
Bevan
Klusener
S Pollock
Akram
Murali
Waqar
McGrath

The T20 era ODI XI (2004-2020)

Rohit
Warner
Kohli
Williamson
ABDV
Shakib
Dhoni + *
M Johnson
Lee
Starc
Steyn

 

[honestbharani]

I mean there were better bowlers than him.

I dunno. I wanted an out and out quick. It was either him or Akhtar and I think in ODI cricket, Lee was better than Akhtar.

 

[stephen]

I dunno. I wanted an out and out quick. It was either him or Akhtar and I think in ODI cricket, Lee was better than Akhtar.

If that's what you want then surely Starc is a better bet.

 

[honestbharani]

If that's what you want then surely Starc is a better bet.

Actually, he is. Dunno why I forgot him.

 

[Migara]

I like having Hussey at 7 if we have to go down that path. Hussey over Bevan for that role coz he has more hitting range. But then Bevan also offers you decent left arm wrist spin which can be useful as a 6th or 7th bowling option.


Sachin
Sanath
Viv
Virat
AB
Bevan
MSD (wk)
Warne
Wasim
Lee
Ambrose


Will be a gun side as it covers most main options required. Will be interesting to see this side play with today's rules. And Bevan/Sachin/Sanath/Viv can do a decent 5th and 6th bowlers role.

Replace Warne with Murali and bowling gets still stronger. And McGrath for Lee and Garner for Ambrose

 

[Red]

There is no way on god's green earth that Akram and Mcgrath should be anywhere near an ATG fielding team. Replace them with Umesh Yadav and Shane Lee and you do have a point.

I remember Shane Lee, Brett's brother. Guess I could have included him if I wanted to include player's who are in no way ATGs.

Who's Umesh Yadav? Someone from the wheel of mediocrity I assume?

 

[Red]

Bagapath's post reminded me what a great ODI player Clive Lloyd was. Phenomenal SR for his era and a good batting average too.

Absolute elite fieldsman in his prime also.

 

[AndrewB]

I think ODI as a format has evolved very fast. Test cricket (and first class cricket) has had changes taking place over several generations. While the difference between a test played in 1880s and now may be huge, the changes have been gradual; because, to start with, two innings cricket was a beautifully structured game that didn't need major tinkering every few years.

The ODI format, on the other hand, has gone through many changes, the one bouncer per over rule, changing field restrictions, no of overs per innings, super sub, free hit after no ball etc. all in less than 50 years.

I would rather have three different XIs to play ODIs to represent the different schools of thought prevailing in the respective eras in terms of approaching limited overs cricket.

The early ODI XI (1970 to 1986)

Greenidge
Haynes
Viv Richards
G. Chappell
Clive Lloyd *
Kapil Dev
Dujon +
Holding
Garner
Lillee
Qadir

Hard to argue against Greenidge and Haynes as openers, but Gooch and Turner had better averages and strike-rates (though in far fewer games).
I'd like to get Zaheer into the team, though again it's hard to argue against any of Richards/Chappell/Lloyd.
And I'd pick Hadlee ahead of Lillee.

 

[vcs]

I like having Hussey at 7 if we have to go down that path. Hussey over Bevan for that role coz he has more hitting range. But then Bevan also offers you decent left arm wrist spin which can be useful as a 6th or 7th bowling option.


Sachin
Sanath
Viv
Virat
AB
Bevan
MSD (wk)
Warne
Wasim
Lee
Ambrose


Will be a gun side as it covers most main options required. Will be interesting to see this side play with today's rules. And Bevan/Sachin/Sanath/Viv can do a decent 5th and 6th bowlers role.

I feel the same way about Hussey vs. Bevan.. felt Hussey was actually the better batsman but Bevan the one who proved himself more with famous clutch knocks.

 

[honestbharani]

I really like Bagapath's idea of looking at ODI cricket as 3 very distinct eras which brought its own different challenges for all players and the roles went through so much redefinition that you really cannot hope to compare even like for like sometimes. When you look at it that way and then work out the ATGs, it just makes it so much more clear who those are and why they are so. And adding some kind of weird player V player on top of that just seems rather unnecessary as unlike test cricket, one day cricket seems to have gone through so many more changes and evolution in such a short span of existence, comparatively speaking.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bevan's bowling was trash

Not when you realize the others were better batsmen.

I'd definitely have Lee ahead of Warne in ODIs, probably ahead of Wasim too tbh. Not sure Wasim was that great with the bat in ODIs

 

[jimmy101]

Lee was pretty good at slogging, would also thrust him higher up the order if the situation called for it.

 

[DriveClub]

I think ODI as a format has evolved very fast. Test cricket (and first class cricket) has had changes taking place over several generations. While the difference between a test played in 1880s and now may be huge, the changes have been gradual; because, to start with, two innings cricket was a beautifully structured game that didn't need major tinkering every few years.

The ODI format, on the other hand, has gone through many changes, the one bouncer per over rule, changing field restrictions, no of overs per innings, super sub, free hit after no ball etc. all in less than 50 years.

I would rather have three different XIs to play ODIs to represent the different schools of thought prevailing in the respective eras in terms of approaching limited overs cricket.

The early ODI XI (1970 to 1986)

Greenidge
Haynes
Viv Richards
G. Chappell
Clive Lloyd *
Kapil Dev
Dujon +
Holding
Garner
Lillee
Qadir

The ODI era XI (1987-2003)

Tendulkar
Gilchrist +
Ponting *
Jones
Bevan
Klusener
S Pollock
Akram
Murali
Waqar
McGrath

The T20 era ODI XI (2004-2020)

Rohit
Warner
Kohli
Williamson
ABDV
Shakib
Dhoni + *
M Johnson
Lee
Starc
Steyn

Good post thought I'd probably change the lineup of these teams a bit