The ``ASHES`` and the Pietersen diillema

[social]

England clearly has the second best attack in conditions outside the subcontinent where even Australia has struggled.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

England clearly has the second best attack in conditions outside the subcontinent where even Australia has struggled.

I would say South Africa's - Pollock, Ntini, Nel, Boje - at least matches England's - Hoggard, Harmison, Innie-minnie-minie-moe, Giles.

 

[chaminda_00]

That is a laughable quote.

We a) have other bowlers who are Test class other than Harmy
b) have better bowlers than Vaas
c) have better bowlers than Herath
d) have other bowlers other than 'No-Ball!' Dilhara
e) have better depth than what you mention.

1. Better bowlers then Vaas u have to be joking aren't u, u honestly think that guys who have only perfromed at the same level as Vaas for one maybe two sesons are better come on ., considering he perfromed at the same level as Hoggard, Flintoff and Hamison for his whole career. When these guys can perform at the same level as Vaas for more then one or two season, then they can be put on the same page as Vaas.

2. No doubt u have never seen Herath cus if u have u would see that he clearly is a better bowler then Giles or any other English spinner.

3. Dilhara may not be the greatest yet but he is atleast on par with Jones, look at their records, their as good as each other.

4. Your lack of depth is clearly shown by the continual selection of Anderson in Test Squads. If u had more depth then this guys would have been dropped a long time.

Dilhara fully fit how good can he be. I could say, James Anderson fully fit and firing how destructive can he be. Zoysa-Lewis, Malinga-Mahmood [pace for pace], Chandana-i will grant you coz we don't have many spinners and who the heck is Suraj

Who has perfromed at both International and domestic levels Zoysa and Malinga or Lewis and Mahmood. When Mahmood got a run at Interantional he looked so out of his depth it wasn't funny, comparing him to someone like Malinga who got the top batsmen world jumping, it is pretty obvious who is the better bowler.

Lewis looked ok in domestic cricket last season but until he doesn anything on the interantional u can't compare him to Zoysa.

Suraj is the best 20yo spin bowler in the world, the next big thing mark my words.

giles is capable of bowling long and effective spells as well.

He might be capable but he isn't as good at bowling long effective spells like Kaneria, he doesn't have the variety or even the accuracy of Kaneria. Kaneria allot better bowler then Giles will ever be.

Look at the way Harmison perfomed in SA. the Saffies do have a stronger line-up than the Windies.

but when Harmy underperfomed Hoggy, Freddie and Jones needed no second invitation

You seemed to be missing the piont he was still in the side, Harmision out of form is still better then Anderson any day of the week.

 

[chaminda_00]

England clearly has the second best attack in conditions outside the subcontinent where even Australia has struggled.

Last time i ckecked u still play Test Matches in the sub-continent, so it has to be taken into consideration when deciding who is the second best bowling attack.

 

[SJS]

Last time i ckecked u still play Test Matches in the sub-continent, so it has to be taken into consideration when deciding who is the second best bowling attack.

And as many as FOUR test playing nations come from there. More than from any other area.

 

[social]

Last time i ckecked u still play Test Matches in the sub-continent, so it has to be taken into consideration when deciding who is the second best bowling attack.

Even Murali is less effective away from home (averages 27 as opposed to 20).

The point is England's attack has performed as well as anyone bar Australia for the past 12 - 18 months.

So -and -so might have potential, but so did Graham Hick and countless others that ended up on the scrap-heap. All that matters is performance and England has done better than most.

 

[SJS]

Even Murali is less effective away from home (averages 27 as opposed to 20).

The point is England's attack has performed as well as anyone bar Australia for the past 12 - 18 months.

So -and -so might have potential, but so did Graham Hick and countless others that ended up on the scrap-heap. All that matters is performance and England has done better than most.

Basically, Social, the performance of all countries bar Australia has been so patchy for so long that we can say anything and find some argument to back it when comparing these four five countries. Fact is there is Australia and there is a HUGE HUGE void. Arguing about spaces beyond that void is really futile. I wish some team (hopefully more) was going to fill that void on a permanent basis and dethrone Australia from their lonely perch.

Till then we will keep arguing about our share of the crumbs

 

[social]

Basically, Social, the performance of all countries bar Australia has been so patchy for so long that we can say anything and find some argument to back it when comparing these four five countries. Fact is there is Australia and there is a HUGE HUGE void. Arguing about spaces beyond that void is really futile. I wish some team (hopefully more) was going to fill that void on a permanent basis and dethrone Australia from their lonely perch.

Till then we will keep arguing about our share of the crumbs

I agree whole-heartedly.

BTW, despite being Australian, whilst enjoying watching our great players, I dont actually enjoy thrashing others consistently. It cant be good for the game.

The level of Australian domination will decrease with time (as it always does) but in the meantime I hope that England gets all their players on the park so it can at least be competitive.

 

[marc71178]

I would say South Africa's - Pollock, Ntini, Nel, Boje - at least matches England's - Hoggard, Harmison, Innie-minnie-minie-moe, Giles.

Erm Liam, you missed Flintoff - most definitely part of the attack.

 

[marc71178]

1. Better bowlers then Vaas u have to be joking aren't u, u honestly think that guys who have only perfromed at the same level as Vaas for one maybe two sesons are better come on ., considering he perfromed at the same level as Hoggard, Flintoff and Hamison for his whole career. When these guys can perform at the same level as Vaas for more then one or two season, then they can be put on the same page as Vaas.

World ratings:
Vaas - 10
Hoggard - 10
Flintoff - 12
Harmison - 9

2. No doubt u have never seen Herath cus if u have u would see that he clearly is a better bowler then Giles or any other English spinner.

World ratings:
Herath - 50
Giles - 17

3. Dilhara may not be the greatest yet but he is atleast on par with Jones, look at their records, their as good as each other.

World ratings:
Dilhara - 40
Jones - 46

On point 1, they're all very closely matched - to say Vaas is clearly better is nowhere near clear cut.
On point 2, the numbers speak for themselves.
On point 3, they are indeed fairly level, but I wonder what these numbers will look like in 6 months time...

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

World ratings:
Vaas - 10
Hoggard - 10
Flintoff - 12
Harmison - 9

Vaas and Hoggard have the same ranking?

 

[Tom Halsey]

Probably tied on points, or something.

 

[Tom Halsey]

1. Better bowlers then Vaas u have to be joking aren't u, u honestly think that guys who have only perfromed at the same level as Vaas for one maybe two sesons are better come on ., considering he perfromed at the same level as Hoggard, Flintoff and Hamison for his whole career. When these guys can perform at the same level as Vaas for more then one or two season, then they can be put on the same page as Vaas.

2. No doubt u have never seen Herath cus if u have u would see that he clearly is a better bowler then Giles or any other English spinner.

3. Dilhara may not be the greatest yet but he is atleast on par with Jones, look at their records, their as good as each other.

4. Your lack of depth is clearly shown by the continual selection of Anderson in Test Squads. If u had more depth then this guys would have been dropped a long time

1) Hoggard, Flintoff, Harmison and Giles have all proved they can do it an International level, and although Jones is still unproven to an extent, I'd say he's a hell of a prospect - We have 3 seamers that IMO are at least as good as Vaas, maybe better.

2) That hasn't convinced me at all. Infact Marchas convinced me otherwise.

3) I think I'd take Jones over Dilhara, who has done nothing but fail when I've seen him (good slower ball though).

4) Anderson has talent, I don't think you can deny that. He needs to go back to County Cricket and sort himself out, and then who knows?

 

[chaminda_00]

1) Hoggard, Flintoff, Harmison and Giles have all proved they can do it an International level, and although Jones is still unproven to an extent, I'd say he's a hell of a prospect - We have 3 seamers that IMO are at least as good as Vaas, maybe better.

2) That hasn't convinced me at all. Infact Marchas convinced me otherwise.

3) I think I'd take Jones over Dilhara, who has done nothing but fail when I've seen him (good slower ball though).

4) Anderson has talent, I don't think you can deny that. He needs to go back to County Cricket and sort himself out, and then who knows?

1. Current form they are equal but the difference is that Vaas has bowled at the same level as these guys his whole career, not just one or two season. Therefore making him a better bowler.

2. Well if Herath was given the same chances as Giles in Test Cricket then he would be in the top 20 as well. And that fact he already has a far better FC record and a better Test record doesn't mean anything does it.

3. I could say the same thing about Jones, he failed every time i have seen him, but i do except he has talent just like Dilhara and if both went through the next six months injury then they would be in the top 20 in world rankings.

4. Anderson does have talent but has nothing to convert that talent to the Test Arena. Their are many players who have talent but that doesn't mean their good enough to play Test Cricket.

 

[marc71178]

1. Current form they are equal but the difference is that Vaas has bowled at the same level as these guys his whole career, not just one or two season. Therefore making him a better bowler.

If he's so good how come he barely averaging under 30 then?

2. Well if Herath was given the same chances as Giles in Test Cricket then he would be in the top 20 as well. And that fact he already has a far better FC record and a better Test record doesn't mean anything does it.

No shock that he's got a better FC record, he plays his domestic cricket in SL. Giles' average of 28.97 is hardly that bad for one who's played so much in England (and in fact his average in non-Test cricket is even better at 26.16.

As for Tests, 24 @ 36.25 against 127 @ 37.15 is hardly that much better really, especially as his record is based on 5 games in SL and 2 in Pakistan.

For someone playing exclusively in predominantly spinning conditions over his career, I wonder why he hasn't had the same chances?

 

[chaminda_00]

If he's so good how come he barely averaging under 30 then?

Consider ur theory about pitch conditions the fact that he averages 30 on non pace bowler friendly pitches must clasify him as a all time great.

Personally i think his average of 30 is more to do flatter pitches around the world. Of the top of my head Gillespie average 25 or something, he like Vaas is allot better bowler then his average might say.

No shock that he's got a better FC record, he plays his domestic cricket in SL. Giles' average of 28.97 is hardly that bad for one who's played so much in England (and in fact his average in non-Test cricket is even better at 26.16.

As for Tests, 24 @ 36.25 against 127 @ 37.15 is hardly that much better really, especially as his record is based on 5 games in SL and 2 in Pakistan.

For someone playing exclusively in predominantly spinning conditions over his career, I wonder why he hasn't had the same chances?

Giles has played most his domestic cricket aganist English batsmen who generally are worse players of spin, so therefore counter the pitch conditions in Sri Lanka.

The reason why he hasn't be given as much ago is cus of a player by the name of Murali.

 

[twctopcat]

Interesting thing is Vaas averages less at home than away, so it could well be a matter of adapting, though i hadn't thought of that.

 

[marc71178]

Giles has played most his domestic cricket aganist English batsmen who generally are worse players of spin, so therefore counter the pitch conditions in Sri Lanka.

OK then, to use your theory, how come Giles' record in SL is far superior to Herath's then, seeing as Giles has only ever bowled to Sri Lankans on their own territory.

The reason why he hasn't be given as much ago is cus of a player by the name of Murali.

SL play more than 1 spinner though...

 

[chaminda_00]

OK then, to use your theory, how come Giles' record in SL is far superior to Herath's then, seeing as Giles has only ever bowled to Sri Lankans on their own territory.

Cus Hearth played majority of his home test aganist Australia

SL play more than 1 spinner though...

True but for some stupid reason they seem to prefer to play spin bowling all rounders like Kumar and Chandana in front of him. It one of those horses or courses decision, similar to when Clarke got picked in the England test side infront of a frontline batsmen. Also in the past they played three pace bowlers at home so they can improve their performances away from home.

 

[Tom Halsey]

1. Current form they are equal but the difference is that Vaas has bowled at the same level as these guys his whole career, not just one or two season. Therefore making him a better bowler.

2. Well if Herath was given the same chances as Giles in Test Cricket then he would be in the top 20 as well. And that fact he already has a far better FC record and a better Test record doesn't mean anything does it.

3. I could say the same thing about Jones, he failed every time i have seen him, but i do except he has talent just like Dilhara and if both went through the next six months injury then they would be in the top 20 in world rankings.

4. Anderson does have talent but has nothing to convert that talent to the Test Arena. Their are many players who have talent but that doesn't mean their good enough to play Test Cricket.

1) What rubbish, how does it? The fact is that now England outbows SL by quite a bit IMO.

2) Considering he plays in SL, I shall be ignoring his FC record. And while he's played so little International cricket, he's still unproven.

3) You've watched a select few of Jones' matches then - and Dilhara needs to sort out some big problems before he gets anywhere near the Top 20.

4) Sounds a bit like Dilhara...