"The almighty Flintoff" and "the below test standard Lee"

[Richard]

the odd ball did keep low, but that shouldnt take away from the high standard of bowling that was on show. The australians did exploit what the pitch offered to perfection I thought.

Do you honestly realise that you can have a bad batting pitch and good bowling (on McGrath's part, and Warne - not that the pitch really influenced him) simualtaneosly?
If not, I suggest you learn that fact.

 

[Swervy]

Do you honestly realise that you can have a bad batting pitch and good bowling (on McGrath's part, and Warne - not that the pitch really influenced him) simualtaneosly?
If not, I suggest you learn that fact.

I do know that you can have terrific bowling on a bad batting track...bad bowling will rarely be consistantly successful on a bad track. On a bad pitch you still have to put it in the right spot,something which mcGrath has been a master of for years.

But this pitch wasnt a shocker..the ball misbehaved a bit and early in the game, but I have seen much much worse at test level and seen teams score well

I dont really know what your point is to be honest..you are preaching to the converted on this one

 

[Pedro Delgado]

It wasn't really Mick Hunt's fault, d'you think anyone would deliberately prepare a pitch like that?

Whose fault is it then? If not Mike Hunt?

 

[Pedro Delgado]

It only turned for Warne - didn't turn at all for Giles.
For a pitch to be a turner as far as I'm concerned it has to mean fingerspinners can turn it. That pitch was never a turner IMO.
It was very, very uneven and, with the slope and some seam-movement, can be called extremely seam-friendly.
And with McGrath in a side that sort of pitch will always see low totals.

I said it turned too much for my liking. We'll never know if it was a real turner, as Gilo didn't get a bowl on day four/five.

 

[Richard]

Whose fault is it then? If not Mike Hunt?

The weather.
Something you can't punish.

 

[Richard]

I said it turned too much for my liking. We'll never know if it was a real turner, as Gilo didn't get a bowl on day four/five.

Well it didn't turn on day one, a real turner turns from the start (such as Trent Bridge, Lord's and Edgbaston last year).
And I highly doubt it would've turned on day four or five, either - hardly any pitches change from non-turners to turners these days.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

The weather.
Something you can't punish.

Fine, but surely Hunt left it out baking too long, unless he still thinks we play on un-covered wickets of course.

 

[Richard]

I do know that you can have terrific bowling on a bad batting track...bad bowling will rarely be consistantly successful on a bad track. On a bad pitch you still have to put it in the right spot,something which mcGrath has been a master of for years.

But this pitch wasnt a shocker..the ball misbehaved a bit and early in the game, but I have seen much much worse at test level and seen teams score well

I dont really know what your point is to be honest..you are preaching to the converted on this one

Maybe you have seen worse at Test-level - but not that much worse.
Fact is, it made Lee dangerous when he won't be bowling like that on an even pitch with no slope.

 

[Richard]

Fine, but surely Hunt left it out baking too long, unless he still thinks we play on un-covered wickets of course.

So you suggest he erected a massive umbrella?
Remember the "brumbrella" of Edgbaston a few years back? Was discovered to be doing more harm than good.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

Well it didn't turn on day one, a real turner turns from the start (such as Trent Bridge, Lord's and Edgbaston last year).
And I highly doubt it would've turned on day four or five, either - hardly any pitches change from non-turners to turners these days.

Surely wickets do change though, that's what sometimes determines the toss ie one might insert on a cloudy morning with a slightly grassy pitch, or one may feel the pitch may turn on day four/five etc so one would bat. The pitches history plays its part too I guess.

You're correct though, it wasn't a proper spinners paradise.

 

[Pratters]

No certainty is absolute.

If you say you are certain, it means there is no doubt. So it is absolute.

Almost certainly is sitting on the fence and not being certain the way I look at it regarding your convictions on Lee.

 

[tooextracool]

How could this forum be any fun if you can't give someone a friendly reminder that they were wrong on a particular issue.

except for the fact that i wasnt wrong about the issue.

In the Australian and NZ summer Lee was outstanding in the onedayers and no matter what was written on this forum from us downunder, you always maintained he wouldn't translate that form into test cricket.....so just a gentle reminder on my part.

nope, you didnt read it clearly then. there were so many people talking about how his presence in an australian A side would make them the 2nd best bowling attack in the world, which as i stated then was quite stupid, because he was unproven, and he had performed just as well in ODIs in the past without translating it into good test performances. and i still think that putting lee down as being an excellent test match bowler is a bit premature, because 1 test match rarely proves much.

As far as Flintoff's concerned I've always maintained he's a good test cricketer just a little overated and overhyped. Thats all

and you will no doubt remember that i never overrated him or overhyped him. i said that he was overrated with the bat and underrated with the ball, and seriously has that changed much?

 

[Pedro Delgado]

So you suggest he erected a massive umbrella?
Remember the "brumbrella" of Edgbaston a few years back? Was discovered to be doing more harm than good.

By your thinking then, all future wickets this series will have uneven bounce from day one because of the hot summer.

I don't know what I'd suggest to be honest Richard, I ain't a groundsman. All I know is uneven bounce on day one is out of order, and must be stopped!!

 

[aussie]

and i still think that putting lee down as being an excellent test match bowler is a bit premature, because 1 test match rarely proves much.

agreed but its fair to say that based on his performace at Lord's, he has definately improved on the way he bowls in test matches which argues well for the future...

 

[Pedro Delgado]

and i still think that putting lee down as being an excellent test match bowler is a bit premature, because 1 test match rarely proves much.

agreed but its fair to say that based on his performace at Lord's, he has definately improved on the way he bowls in test matches which argues well for the future...

He has improved since the last time I saw him bowl in a test. It will be interesting to see him bowl on a flat deck, but it looks like we may not see that until the Oval, if indeed that wicket plays as history suggest it will.

 

[tooextracool]

was it really that good a bowling pitch..even vaughan said 300 should have been par on that pitch, which means it offered something for everyone.Australia were done in the first innings by good bowling and poor batting, England were done by great bowling

it was a pitch that suited mcgrath and warne to a pill. the slope allowed mcgrath to get his stock delivery to come back in a lot better along with the seam movement and uneven bounce made him a real handful. warne too got plenty of turn, and more importantly uneven bounce which made him a real nightmare. on the 4th day it was almost impossible to handle the 2 of them because they were both getting seam movement and turn respectively and you knew right then that england werent going to get too many runs.
i'll wait till we get a better quality pitch before i make an more judgements about how good(or poor) this england side is, and i think that we'll find that out before the 2nd test is done.

 

[Richard]

If you say you are certain, it means there is no doubt. So it is absolute.

Almost certainly is sitting on the fence and not being certain the way I look at it regarding your convictions on Lee.

Look - we can't be certain that Lee won't suddenly and miraculously develop new abilities he's never shown remotest signs of.
Not very likely, I know, but I always like to cut myself as much slack as I possibly can.

 

[Richard]

Surely wickets do change though, that's what sometimes determines the toss ie one might insert on a cloudy morning with a slightly grassy pitch, or one may feel the pitch may turn on day four/five etc so one would bat. The pitches history plays its part too I guess.

You're correct though, it wasn't a proper spinners paradise.

Well yes, seam-friendly pitches do sometimes turn into non-seamers (still more common to get them staying seam-friendly, though).
It's almost unheard of, though, for a pitch that's offered no assistance to spin at the start to offer it towards the end. Often pitches that start spin-friendly become even more so, but not very often change character completely.

 

[Richard]

By your thinking then, all future wickets this series will have uneven bounce from day one because of the hot summer.

It's been ephemeral so far - we've had sustained periods of warm weather, then shorter ones of unsettled stuff.
Just like 2003.

I don't know what I'd suggest to be honest Richard, I ain't a groundsman. All I know is uneven bounce on day one is out of order, and must be stopped!!

Well, it's out of order if it becomes a habit, but judging by descriptions of Lord's pitches and scores in games there I'd guess it's not happened much!
But if it only happens a handful of times per season it's not much to get uptight about. It's just unfortunate that it happened in a Test-match.

 

[Richard]

agreed but its fair to say that based on his performace at Lord's, he has definately improved on the way he bowls in test matches which argues well for the future...

Assuming you mean augers - I've seen him bowl this way in Test-matches before, and I've never seen him bowl on a pitch anything like as seam-friendly as this one.
I'd venture to say that this Test proves nothing because we've nothing to compare it to. I'd say wait until he bowls on some pitches more like those he's played his last 30 Tests on, then we'll know if anything has actually changed.